Tommy T: Page 8 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Tommy T

lorddulaarsenal

jones wrote:
Gazza M wrote:
pack it in, we've just scraped past a relegation candidate at home.

'folk starting to see where we're headed' 😆

Arteta really done a number on a couple of us. Pepe needs to be sold, Arteta's signings were good and we need just a couple more attackers also we're going places while sitting 16th with a GD of -8.

Mush nobody has said Pepe needs to be sold.

lorddulaarsenal

Jed wrote:
@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
Sound like a broken record, but most of the signings made under Arteta have been top notch.

Patience is needed. Had folk thinking “what’s Dools seeing that my untrained eye isn’t” - well folk are starting to see where we’re heading.

Ricky gets it. I’ve not seen him this chipper since the time I taught him how to pull women!

Positivity for the sake of it isn’t gonna make things better.

I’m not being positive for the sake of it. It’s just not the doom and gloom that everyone’s painting it to be.

jones

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
jones wrote:
Arteta really done a number on a couple of us. Pepe needs to be sold, Arteta's signings were good and we need just a couple more attackers also we're going places while sitting 16th with a GD of -8.

Mush nobody has said Pepe needs to be sold.

Mush you've posted in the thread yourself where it was said.

Burnwinter

jones wrote:
Arteta really done a number on a couple of us. Pepe needs to be sold, Arteta's signings were good and we need just a couple more attackers also we're going places while sitting 16th with a GD of -8.

We have so many chats like this round here. "Proposition A, but also contravening proposition B" …

Everyone in this thread (with the honourable exception of Dules, Lord bless him) seems to think (A) we're shit and will continue to be pretty shit but (B) some of the new signings look like they've got potential. The rest is fiddling about how A or B are emphasised or calibrated or rhetorically framed isn't it?

jones

Agree in general but there needs to be a distinction within B. Some of the new players look like they've got potential, as signings they were a) way overpriced and b) made in the wrong positions. There's an important difference between a player and a signing even disregarding the fees that mean your budget elsewhere is reduced, if hypothetically we signed Ter Stegen and Oblak that would be two world class players and at least one shit signing, if not two because GK wasn't a priority. You fix issues in order of magnitude, can't blame Arteta and Edu for not getting that one right though because they'd have to replace themselves first.

lorddulaarsenal

jones wrote:
@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
Mush nobody has said Pepe needs to be sold.

Mush you've posted in the thread yourself where it was said.

Quote it mate.

lorddulaarsenal

Burnwinter wrote:
jones wrote:
Arteta really done a number on a couple of us. Pepe needs to be sold, Arteta's signings were good and we need just a couple more attackers also we're going places while sitting 16th with a GD of -8.

We have so many chats like this round here. "Proposition A, but also contravening proposition B" …

Everyone in this thread (with the honourable exception of Dules, Lord bless him) seems to think (A) we're shit and will continue to be pretty shit but (B) some of the new signings look like they've got potential. The rest is fiddling about how A or B are emphasised or calibrated or rhetorically framed isn't it?

Burnsy I think I put down us to finish 7th or 8th in the predictions thread. I can just appreciate the direction of travel more than others.

lorddulaarsenal

jones wrote:
Agree in general but there needs to be a distinction within B. Some of the new players look like they've got potential, as signings they were a) way overpriced and b) made in the wrong positions. There's an important difference between a player and a signing even disregarding the fees that mean your budget elsewhere is reduced, if hypothetically we signed Ter Stegen and Oblak that would be two world class players and at least one shit signing, if not two because GK wasn't a priority. You fix issues in order of magnitude, can't blame Arteta and Edu for not getting that one right though because they'd have to replace themselves first.

So what was the order of priorities?

Arteta was clear in that centreback was our biggest problem area and I fully agree. We headed in to the market with only one good option - Gabriel

Burnwinter

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
Burnsy I think I put down us to finish 7th or 8th in the predictions thread. I can just appreciate the direction of travel more than others.

Fair play, that's about where I was at for this season, looking bang on about now to me.

Ray

Even Liverpool were more ambitious to finish top 4 when they had Dalglish in charge buying the likes of Carroll, and that ambition / constant change in management got them Klopp and back to the top. If we stick around with the same manager finishing 8th every season hoping to one day break in despite not changing anything, then we will go down the table, not up.

Which poses the question, that if Arteta has been backed more than any other arsenal manager, and spent the most in the league, and we’re still expecting him to finish 7/8th at best, what is he still doing here?

And that is what seperates us from winning mentality clubs like Chelsea, City even Liverpool.

lorddulaarsenal

Ray wrote:
Even Liverpool were more ambitious to finish top 4 when they had Dalglish in charge buying the likes of Carroll, and that ambition / constant change in management got them Klopp and back to the top. If we stick around with the same manager finishing 8th every season hoping to one day break in despite not changing anything, then we will go down the table, not up.

Which poses the question, that if Arteta has been backed more than any other arsenal manager, and spent the most in the league, and we’re still expecting him to finish 7/8th at best, what is he still doing here?

And that is what seperates us from winning mentality clubs like Chelsea, City even Liverpool.

Do you really think any other manager out there could have gotten us in to the top four with equivalent backing whilst having to sort out legacy issues?

Means finishing above City, United, Liverpool and Chelsea...

jones

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
jones wrote:
Agree in general but there needs to be a distinction within B. Some of the new players look like they've got potential, as signings they were a) way overpriced and b) made in the wrong positions. There's an important difference between a player and a signing even disregarding the fees that mean your budget elsewhere is reduced, if hypothetically we signed Ter Stegen and Oblak that would be two world class players and at least one shit signing, if not two because GK wasn't a priority. You fix issues in order of magnitude, can't blame Arteta and Edu for not getting that one right though because they'd have to replace themselves first.

So what was the order of priorities?

Arteta was clear in that centreback was our biggest problem area and I fully agree. We headed in to the market with only one good option - Gabriel

CM and RB are the biggest issues in the squad, especially CM where it's not just quality but quantity missing. You could argue literally every position in the squad bar CAM needed a signing either first XI or back up more urgently than CB or GK. Gabriel Holding Saliba Mari isn't perfect but serviceable enough whereas in midfield we have one starter in Partey and a promising kid in Lokonga. Mari and Holding get shat on now but the former looked very promising before everyone's form went down the shitter and Holding while limited is a solid PL defender. Even for stopgaps I'd rather play Chambers at centre back than Xhaka or Elneny in midfield.

That Arteta is clear what our biggest problem area is is part of the problem.

Big Willie

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
Ray wrote:
Even Liverpool were more ambitious to finish top 4 when they had Dalglish in charge buying the likes of Carroll, and that ambition / constant change in management got them Klopp and back to the top. If we stick around with the same manager finishing 8th every season hoping to one day break in despite not changing anything, then we will go down the table, not up.

Which poses the question, that if Arteta has been backed more than any other arsenal manager, and spent the most in the league, and we’re still expecting him to finish 7/8th at best, what is he still doing here?

And that is what seperates us from winning mentality clubs like Chelsea, City even Liverpool.

Do you really think any other manager out there could have gotten us in to the top four with equivalent backing whilst having to sort out legacy issues?

Means finishing above City, United, Liverpool and Chelsea...

Last season? 100%. We were 6 points off top 4 even with all the shitty football and bullshit 1 win in 100 games run in the autumn. Any halfway decent manager would have gotten us top 4 last season. And even if he'd missed out at the minimum he'd have been expected to finish top 6.

Remember, Liverpool had probably the worst ever campaigns by a reigning PL champion, Chelsea were all over the place until they replaced Lampard, and United we're losing almost all their home games, getting battered by the likes of Spurs by 5 or 6 goals.

We had all the opportunities to take advantage but Arteta just exasperated the situation and couldn't find a way to capitalise, instead having us fighting it out with the likes of Leeds United and co smack bang in mid table.

jones

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
Ray wrote:
Even Liverpool were more ambitious to finish top 4 when they had Dalglish in charge buying the likes of Carroll, and that ambition / constant change in management got them Klopp and back to the top. If we stick around with the same manager finishing 8th every season hoping to one day break in despite not changing anything, then we will go down the table, not up.

Which poses the question, that if Arteta has been backed more than any other arsenal manager, and spent the most in the league, and we’re still expecting him to finish 7/8th at best, what is he still doing here?

And that is what seperates us from winning mentality clubs like Chelsea, City even Liverpool.

Do you really think any other manager out there could have gotten us in to the top four with equivalent backing whilst having to sort out legacy issues?

Means finishing above City, United, Liverpool and Chelsea...

Do you think no manager out there could have gotten six points more than Arteta last season? Just two wins more, instead of losing 13 fucking matches in the league losing only 11, being the manager of Arsenal Football Club instead of losing 7 out of 19 football matches at home maybe lose just five?

Burnwinter

@[deleted] Liverpool mysticism really. They got lucky in Istanbul and then they entirely got their shit together after a long, long time.

lorddulaarsenal

I don’t think any other manager would have collected as many points in the league post Christmas - a strong indication those issues are a thing of the past

Ray

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
Ray wrote:
Even Liverpool were more ambitious to finish top 4 when they had Dalglish in charge buying the likes of Carroll, and that ambition / constant change in management got them Klopp and back to the top. If we stick around with the same manager finishing 8th every season hoping to one day break in despite not changing anything, then we will go down the table, not up.

Which poses the question, that if Arteta has been backed more than any other arsenal manager, and spent the most in the league, and we’re still expecting him to finish 7/8th at best, what is he still doing here?

And that is what seperates us from winning mentality clubs like Chelsea, City even Liverpool.

Do you really think any other manager out there could have gotten us in to the top four with equivalent backing whilst having to sort out legacy issues?

Means finishing above City, United, Liverpool and Chelsea...

We'll never know unless we try different managers.

I don't mind if fans expect Arteta to finish top 5 and are willing to give him this season to prove (after he's been fully backed), and sack him if he can't. But accepting he will finish 8th, but still being okay with him sticking around, is nonsense IMO.

Ray

Burnwinter wrote:
@[deleted] Liverpool mysticism really. They got lucky in Istanbul and then they entirely got their shit together after a long, long time.

It's not just Liverpool though, at the end of the day, if things aren't working (which they aren't if we're finishing 7th / 8th) then changes need to be made, trying the same thing every year, and failing is exactly why we stuck around with Wenger and fell deeper into this lull. I had thought the club was being slightly proactive when they sacked Wenger then Emery when performance fell, but it looks like it has gone back to status quo with Arteta, sticking with him for god knows what reasons. At least with Wenger there was loyalty for his previous performances, Arteta has done nothing to deserve this loyalty.

Burnwinter

It was that last 7–8 years of Wenger's leadership that put us where we are now, scrambling against a tide of stagnation. He was always going to be a tough act to follow, just wish he hadn't insisted on being his own follow-up act. It was misguided and left us with too much change all at once.

goon

Arteta is probably benefiting from the lack of stability and structure around him. Wenger, Gazidis, Sven, Emery, Raul and Huss all leaving within the last 4 years. If there was a solid, stable hierarchy around him they'd have probably gone and replaced him by now because it wouldn't be such a big deal. As it is Josh has painted himself into a corner and he's not prepared to start over just yet.

« Previous Page Next Page »