Rohit wrote:

I really like White but our money should but put to better use.

This is also why it helps to just keep a manager and DoF for a few cycles. These guys did not really have last summer to work and Raul was busy being fired. This is their first summer together after cleaning up in January. Let’s see what their vision looks like at the end of the summer. Hopefully we can finally have a group of players that make sense together.

I’m less married on individual players right now. If Saliba goes, that would be sad that Arsenal wasted time and money as usual but that’s what happens with 3 managers and 3 DoFs in a short time. We need stability

IMO White would replace Holding before either Saliba or Mavropanos.

Anzac wrote:

IMO White would replace Holding before either Saliba or Mavropanos.

Holding is wholly dispensable. He’s the face of what’s gone wrong with Arsenal. I know he’s the favorite of some Arsenal fans but he’s exactly in the same category as Xhaka for me. A Europa League player starting at a club that would like to compete for big trophies.

Claudius wrote:

Anzac wrote:

IMO White would replace Holding before either Saliba or Mavropanos.

Holding is wholly dispensable. He’s the face of what’s gone wrong with Arsenal. I know he’s the favorite of some Arsenal fans but he’s exactly in the same category as Xhaka for me. A Europa League player starting at a club that would like to compete for big trophies.

I think holding is the most exposed tbh. he's not good on the ball, and artetas obssession with CBs seems to driven by the ability to pass out from the back. I personally think he's getting lost in the sauce with this CB fetish

To be fair both City (Dias) and Liverpool (VVD) were transformed with good centre back signings, but is Ben White it at that level? I hope he knows what he’s getting.

Surely the end of one or two of Holding / Saliba / Mavropanos if this happens.

God Arsenal are such a frustrating club. We have so many players in every position but none are good enough for where we want to be and none seem to be easy to move.

Holding should command value. He is English and had a good season, the best performing center back for a the team with the 3rd best defensive record in the League. I think White has great potential. I haven't watched much of Saliba but it's frustrating that we seem to be investing in potential. All of White, Saliba and Gabriel are all potentially very good center backs. I am not sure if this is optimal utilization of our limited resources.

Claudius wrote:

Anzac wrote:

IMO White would replace Holding before either Saliba or Mavropanos.

Holding is wholly dispensable. He’s the face of what’s gone wrong with Arsenal. I know he’s the favorite of some Arsenal fans but he’s exactly in the same category as Xhaka for me. A Europa League player starting at a club that would like to compete for big trophies.

We just need to get him in on loan for games against Chelsea.

I agree, he has no business being a starter.

Holding is a great backup option. No need to replace him. The question is who is the starter, either Saliba starts or you sell him and buy a replacement starter. All the talk of Arteta wanting to give Saliba a chance seems like a load of tosh, another young player with potential being wasted.

I agree. We will have two years left on Saliba's contract next summer and I don't see how any reason why he will extend beyond 2024 so we need to make a decision this summer if we want to sell him or back him because if we don't do either we will be losing a lot of value come next summer.

Holding was available all of last summer and only Newcastle came to get him on loan.

Over-rated much.

Gunner89 wrote:

Holding was available all of last summer and only Newcastle came to get him on loan.

Over-rated much.

It’s actually worth looking at who tracks our players when they’re available. It’s a sad ting.

If this happens, I can only really assess whether it's a good transfer at the end of the window. He's a good player but if come next season this means we have to go cheap in CM and other more pressing positions then it's madness. If Saliba is the player to suffer for this it's madness either way.

Last year Holding was coming off an injured season without much game time, hardly comparable.

Claudius wrote:

Gunner89 wrote:

Holding was available all of last summer and only Newcastle came to get him on loan.

Over-rated much.

It’s actually worth looking at who tracks our players when they’re available. It’s a sad ting.

Holding last summer was coming back from an ACL injury and had played 10 odd games in 2 seasons. Some of the denigrating of our players that really try their best for us regardless of their ceiling is also a very sad thing. 

Rohit wrote:

Claudius wrote:

It’s actually worth looking at who tracks our players when they’re available. It’s a sad ting.

Holding last summer was coming back from an ACL injury and had played 10 odd games in 2 seasons. Some of the denigrating of our players that really try their best for us regardless of their ceiling is also a very sad thing. 

I’m speaking in general. Xhaka got himself a decent trade to Roma. And we might be able to get big money for Willock if we decide to sell him. But we have been trying to sell players since last summer and many had to go for free and there are no solid rumours on the remaining guys.

It’s not about denigrating the players. It’s about being realistic about our squad quality. We have special players like Saka, Tierney etc. But we have a long tail that doesn’t belong here. If Wenger, Emery and Arteta all fail to qualify for the champions league, maybe you shouldn’t be pinning all the blame on the manager. There’s something else going on

In 2 of the last 3 seasons we have been a result or two short of top 4. I do agree, we are short on quality, the table doesn't lie. Even so, there was no excuse for us finishing the season in 18/19 under Emery the way we did. There is no excuse for us going 7 matches without a win, a run that included 5 losses this season. That just shouldn't happen. That we barely create and lack intent is not because of the quality either. These are on managers even if there were mitigating circumstances.

I don't think the players failed Arteta. It never looked like they lacked effort and weren't trying. I don't mind him starting the season as our manager but I just find some of the criticism of players unfair whether that be Xhaka or Holding, 2 of our better players this season. If other players who are actually more influential than the aforementioned names, had performed, we may have been in the CL next season.

I am fine with us selling Holding by the way if we are investing in someone better.

Rohit wrote:

I am fine with us selling Holding by the way if we are investing in someone better.

This is not having a go at anyone and certainly not yourself, I just want to pick up on this.

IMO it's not so much about getting someone 'better' as opposed to someone being more suited.
IMO this is where AW got the recruitment 'wrong' as he was always talking about no one being available to 'improve the quality of the team', rather than actually being 'fit for purpose'.
As such IMO you can lose quality (individual or team) regarding technical ability, but actually gain in terms of performance and capability by becoming 'fit for purpose'.

Using Holding as an example he is a decent defender, but IMO is not suited to playing in a high defensive line even as a sub/cover, whereas someone else may not be as solid a defender in terms of heading or tackling, but may be a better fit in terms of playing in a high line, and may have better positioning and passing = horses for courses.  
I think we are guilty of forgetting this in regards to this rebuild.  IMO at this point in terms of this season functionality & capability are more important in terms of performance than individual quality - the whole being better than the sum of it's parts.  If we regain top4/UCL then this time next summer is where we look to improve our quality and depth.
That said if there is an opportunity to sign players who are both quality and fit for purpose we should do so , which brings me back to beating my drum about the opportunity to set us up for 3-5 years IF we have the appetite to take advantage of this depressed COVID market.  We are not going to get value for money in terms of player sales, however we can offset that by getting value in transfers in to build a strong and capable match day squad with players of genuine quality.