Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?: Page 210 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?

QuincyAbeyie

That Arteta "built" the squad doesn't really factor into it. The decision of whether to renew him or not should exclusively be based on if they think he will get better results than the alternative. If they think Arteta's strength is identifying players then there's certainly a role for that although it's not being a manager.

OH, and again Goon: Pedicting bad results before the season =/= not rating the squad.

It's entirely possible to

Think we have the fourth best squad
Predict a lower position because one thinks that Arteta will underachieve
See now that he might achieve what they thought was the squads's level
Not necessarily think that achieving to the squad's level is reason for renewment as there are many managers around the world doing better than they should on paper (on paper being how much money they have available)

Burnwinter

flobaba wrote:
Just want to mention that I think it shows lots of courage to keep panning Arteta at his highest moments. Very brave of you sir.

I appreciate the way Jonesy will combine comparing Arteta to a flaming turd independent of near term results and progress with steadily increasing the minimum standard he'll accept—it's gone from fourth to second now.

flobaba

Lol. Yup. Simply gotta love this place sometimes.

Burnwinter

I reckon we do have roughly the fourth best squad, United are miles ahead of us on aggregate value on paper though.

We've got better, happier, more integrated, balanced and drilled young players who are also better organised for the time being, and fewer dickheads.

jones

Burnwinter wrote:
flobaba wrote:
Just want to mention that I think it shows lots of courage to keep panning Arteta at his highest moments. Very brave of you sir.

I appreciate the way Jonesy will combine comparing Arteta to a flaming turd independent of near term results and progress with steadily increasing the minimum standard he'll accept—it's gone from fourth to second now.

You're in no position to judge with that tagline and your current CL dreams.

You're conflating a bunch of points on the "minimum standard I'll accept" - the question whether he should have his contract extended is entirely different to whether he should be sacked on the spot. I don't think it's possible to sack him if he finishes 4th without causing waves within the squad, club etc, I wouldn't want us to be Chelsea with their hotseat policy either so I wouldn't do it. At the same time it'd be entirely reasonable to keep looking for a different manager who could do better with this squad than just about par, meaning he could have the CL season to try and improve on what he's doing. If he finished 2nd and we showed some sustained overall attacking performance you could start talking about extending at some point

QuincyAbeyie

I don't think finishing second is the minimum requirement, 4th is. I think that's what Jones meant by the Leno example - he certainly filled our "minimum requirements" but that doesn't mean you can't improve. It's the same for managers.

Burnwinter

jones wrote:
You're in no position to judge with that tagline and your current CL dreams.

I've checked, and I'm still logged on to the Internet so I'm in a fucking great position to judge whatever I please ...

jones wrote:
You're conflating a bunch of points on the "minimum standard I'll accept" -

Maybe I mean I think you're just taking the bait on a bit of gentle trolling to be honest. If Arteta gets us to second place this season he'll have walked on water.

jones

I know you were trolling, it's what droll trolls like you do. Just thought I'd expand a bit on my point to make sure you actually get it. Quincy seemingly does, maybe it's just because he has better internet than you.

goon

jones wrote:
goon wrote:
You guys are full of it.

The reason we have the 4th best team, ahead of the biggest spenders in the league, is because of the squad Arteta has built. And I'd love to see how many on here were saying we had a better team than United before it became evident via performances.

But apparently unless we finish ahead of Chelsea and Liverpool then he's done nothing to warrant a new deal 😆

You can sit there and pretend that Mustafi, Sokratis, Kolasinac, Luiz, Xhaka, Bellerin, Elneny, Torreira and Ozil were already top four quality (and loved before Arteta took over apparently) for a team that hasn't finished in the top four since 2016 then I don't know what to say to you.

As for lowering standards, I'm the only one who actually predicted we'd finish 4th, some of you were talking (with all seriousness) about relegation.

"because of the squad Arteta has built" 😆 he's a fucking manager not a technical director. Plus we are currently the biggest spenders in the league. And knock it off I've said a bunch of times that I think the squad was CL level last season, it is this season and the only reason we were likely to miss out is the millstone of a manager we have.

I don't have to pretend those guys were top four quality all of them bar Elneny (Xhaka and Kola barely) have played plenty of CL in the past. What you seem hellbent on ignoring is no coach in the world has only top class players to work with. For you it's a built in excuse while guys like Conte and Klopp win league titles with Moses Alonso Milner and Henderson.

But yeah let's give the manager a new deal because he has spent close to 250m and has us now in contention for the CL spots.

"highest spenders in the league" is such disingenuous point that I'm wondering why you're bothering to use that line? Norwich have spent double that of Liverpool and Villa 3 times as much, so what? We're competing with a team that's spent nearly a 1bn on it's squad and has triple our wage bill.

We've spent 230m on about 8 players (not including free transfers or Runnerson), which averages out to less than £30m per player, the most expensive of which you think was massively overpriced - he's not signed "world class players" in every position, he's just built a good young squad with lots of promise while getting a rid of a load of toxic trash. Klopp sold a shit load of players and spent 400m in his first three years - he didn't turn water into wine. Conte took over a team that had won the league 5 months prior before Jose went full Mourinho and then added Kante.

You guys can also pretend that Klopp, Pep and Conte just sit there happily taking whoever they get with no real responsibility to building a side, I'm just not sure who you're trying to fool. There's a reason the latter is coming out after each bad result and trashing his own team, and it's not because he's happy with whatever he has. Personally I've always felt being able to build a good, well balanced side is a huge part of a managers job - and one I'd certainly want to entrust to them vs some guy in a suit.

QuincyAbeyie

goon wrote:
jones wrote:
"because of the squad Arteta has built" 😆 he's a fucking manager not a technical director. Plus we are currently the biggest spenders in the league. And knock it off I've said a bunch of times that I think the squad was CL level last season, it is this season and the only reason we were likely to miss out is the millstone of a manager we have.

I don't have to pretend those guys were top four quality all of them bar Elneny (Xhaka and Kola barely) have played plenty of CL in the past. What you seem hellbent on ignoring is no coach in the world has only top class players to work with. For you it's a built in excuse while guys like Conte and Klopp win league titles with Moses Alonso Milner and Henderson.

But yeah let's give the manager a new deal because he has spent close to 250m and has us now in contention for the CL spots.

You guys can also pretend that Klopp, Pep and Conte just sit there happily taking whoever they get with no real responsibility to building a side, I'm just not sure who you're trying to fool.

I see you've landed on the only two options for how a club operates are the manager handpicking his players and.. this. Alright then.

Edit: And you actually put that sentence in a post you started by calling someone disingenuous. 😆

goon

Well nuance is banned on here Quincy. Plus I didn't say he hand picked every player, but I guarantee he and they all played a massive part in it. Though Conte notoriously fell out with the Chelsea hierarchy because he wasn't getting his way.

Doc

Some serious goalposts being shifted in here

Burnwinter

jones wrote:
I know you were trolling, it's what droll trolls like you do. Just thought I'd expand a bit on my point to make sure you actually get it. Quincy seemingly does, maybe it's just because he has better internet than you.

I get your point. That's why I was teasing you though, you slide easily between different registers of predicted, observed, minimum and satisfactory performance of the team, all the while beating Arteta for current and past results in quite an uncalibrated way, then tell others they're conflating ...

I agree in many ways anyway, some positive momentum has led to me hoping for a fourth place finish this season if it's up for grabs. That's just the truth.

On spending, I think the aggregate value charts are a neutral guide to how much we might expect to invest or develop in value to compete equitably with City, Chelsea and United. It's in the hundreds of millions more at this point, as those three clubs have billion euro squads. United are just incompetent.

This big gap in squad aggregate value predates Arteta and puts our recent expenditure in context.

Qwiss

jones wrote:
I know you were trolling, it's what droll trolls like you do.

Droll troll!

What you say,

Droll Troll!

Hey hey hey...

Don Pacifico

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Don Pacifico wrote:
I'd actually dispute whether we have the 4th best squad in the league. The vast majority of pundits had us pegged to finish outside of the top 4.

www.bbc.com/sport/football/58141017.amp

Now whilst those predictions will take into account more than just squad ability, that feels a reasonable barometer in terms of how our squad is viewed outside of our fanbase. Let's not forget that many people thought we'd made some bad moves in the transfer market before the season got going, so my hunch would be that neutrals don't rate our squad so highly.

I didn't think we'd finish fourth either even if I think our squad is the fourth best one. The predictions are a barometer of how the squad + the manager is viewed, not just the former.

The manager wouldn't really matter at all if predictions and squad quality were the same.

Well, the prevailing opinion I've seen voiced on here is that the media are too positive about Arteta's ability as a manager. From which, I'd infer that if they're forecasting Arsenal to not get top four, they probably don't rate the squad.

As an example:

[size=xx-large]Neville on his underachievers, Arsenal: "I think they've got a good young coach but at the moment I worry about the make-up of the squad, it doesn't feel right. That's not because they've lost their first two games. They've got a mixture of young players that you can imagine are committed, desperate to do well, have got talent, and then I think about the guidance I got as a young player at Manchester United, from unbelievable senior players in that dressing room, and I don't think they've got the right direction around them in that structure."[/size]

Bosscielny

My favourite thing about people throwing around how much we’ve spent is that they ignore that 70% of it was spent in the last window. And since that 160m worth of players joined the side we went from last to fourth. Obviously we all know our football, so we can all agree that it was only a 3/10 window and we spent all that money without improving the first eleven, but it still shouldn’t be glossed over.

In one sentence you see someone say we’ve spent more than anyone, and in the next they’re implying it was all for nothing by hitting us with the “back to back eighth placed finishes”, as if the 25 million he ruined the club with by spending on that habitual loser Ramsdale should’ve helped us in 2020.

Big Willie

Don Pacifico wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
I didn't think we'd finish fourth either even if I think our squad is the fourth best one. The predictions are a barometer of how the squad + the manager is viewed, not just the former.

The manager wouldn't really matter at all if predictions and squad quality were the same.

Well, the prevailing opinion I've seen voiced on here is that the media are too positive about Arteta's ability as a manager. From which, I'd infer that if they're forecasting Arsenal to not get top four, they probably don't rate the squad.

As an example:

[size=xx-large]Neville on his underachievers, Arsenal: "I think they've got a good young coach but at the moment I worry about the make-up of the squad, it doesn't feel right. That's not because they've lost their first two games. They've got a mixture of young players that you can imagine are committed, desperate to do well, have got talent, and then I think about the guidance I got as a young player at Manchester United, from unbelievable senior players in that dressing room, and I don't think they've got the right direction around them in that structure."[/size]

Let's separate the pundit predictions and what they are saying from those who were sceptical about Arteta's qualities and what their predictions mean.

Whilst both groups will predict the same thing, eg us finishing outside top 4, Quincy's point is that these predictions include both how the squad and the manager is rated. Whilst the Nevilles and others who are perceived as being too positive about Arteta will still predict us finishing outside top four it's because they believe our squad just isn't good enough even if Arteta does all he can. Those predictions are most closely aligned with what Ricky, yourself, and the other Arteta in boys would say. Our problems stem from our shit squad and Arteta had a huge jobs to get us anywhere near there.

The likes of Quincy, Jones and the Arteta out guys predicted that we'd finish outside top four as well but mainly because they don't rate him. I predicted the same as well, not because I didn't think our squad wasn't good enough to get fourth, I believed we had a good enough squad to finish fourth or at the very least get to within a couple points or so of Spurs and United. I'm sure predictions would have been very different from the Arteta sceptics had we had what was perceived as a better manager at the time.

My view on Arteta is changing somewhat from Arteta out at all to being more optimistic but I'll have to see how it goes between here and the end of the season before I fully come around.

Anzac

I'm sort of different again.

I do think Arteta will succeed eventually in terms of the team and tactics, however I do not think we have the time frame or margins for error available for him to do so AND then to regain top4. Similarly he is the least experienced and lowest profile of any manager in the current big6, as I do not think we would be seeing talk like Vlahovic refusing to pick up the 'phone if we had one of the other big6 managers onboard.

Then with NUFC we have a joker in the pack that whilst they may not challenge for top4 within the same time frames, they are more likely to have a more immediate impact in the transfer market as they build towards challenging for top4.

Don Pacifico

Big Willie wrote:
Don Pacifico wrote:
Well, the prevailing opinion I've seen voiced on here is that the media are too positive about Arteta's ability as a manager. From which, I'd infer that if they're forecasting Arsenal to not get top four, they probably don't rate the squad.

As an example:

Let's separate the pundit predictions and what they are saying from those who were sceptical about Arteta's qualities and what their predictions mean.

Whilst both groups will predict the same thing, eg us finishing outside top 4, Quincy's point is that these predictions include both how the squad and the manager is rated. Whilst the Nevilles and others who are perceived as being too positive about Arteta will still predict us finishing outside top four it's because they believe our squad just isn't good enough even if Arteta does all he can. Those predictions are most closely aligned with what Ricky, yourself, and the other Arteta in boys would say. Our problems stem from our shit squad and Arteta had a huge jobs to get us anywhere near there.

The likes of Quincy, Jones and the Arteta out guys predicted that we'd finish outside top four as well but mainly because they don't rate him. I predicted the same as well, not because I didn't think our squad wasn't good enough to get fourth, I believed we had a good enough squad to finish fourth or at the very least get to within a couple points or so of Spurs and United. I'm sure predictions would have been very different from the Arteta sceptics had we had what was perceived as a better manager at the time.

My view on Arteta is changing somewhat from Arteta out at all to being more optimistic but I'll have to see how it goes between here and the end of the season before I fully come around.

Regardless of what pundits think, I don't personally believe we have the 4th best squad in the league. My experience has been that as fans we can often overrate our own players and as such, trying to gauge the opinion from a more neutral (albeit imperfect) barometer may help articulate that point.

Burnwinter

Aside from the obvious three, who do you think has a better squad, Don? There's a clear argument for United, and I'd say we've often looked better than United lately because we're better organised and coached, not because of the intrinsic quality of our players—just goes to show those distinctions are hard to make though.

In recent analyses Spurs have been rated as having a higher aggregate market value than us.

This Transfermarkt tool is pretty nifty, it lets you set a cut-off date for a historical valuation, and compare the % change to the current value. Obviously a lot of their player valuations are estimates or bogus, but it's still an interesting exercise.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/marktwerteverein/wettbewerb/GB1/plus/?stichtag=2021-09-01

One of the advantages we have with our young roster is that we'll organically improve (with corresponding increases in overall value) without intervention for the next few seasons, all else being equal. There's no other top club in this league in that position for now. I see us as in a pretty tight battle for fourth best squad, with a lot of upside depending on upcoming transfers and contract management.

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