Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?: Page 200 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?

jones

banduan wrote:
jones wrote:
Nothing to do with my own predisposition but Arteta's own words and actions not matching up. He talks about victims making excuses while he throws his players under the bus any chance he gets. End of last season he says the squad was playing at capacity. During his first catastrophic run despite having shifted half the first XI he says he needs another five or six starters

I'm not attributing anything to the man. If you want to talk a big game you should be able to have something to show for yourself, you guye compare him to some of the best coaches in the world and don't even realise how utterly wrong that sounds

way to illustrate the point 😆

Arteta could start to literally throw players under a driving bus and some of you would still call people out for their agendas ffs.

Ricky1985

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Literally only mentioned two examples and none of them were about his ability.

I don't hold the quotes against him. Arsenal legends of yesteryear have said far, far worse, and whilst disloyal public statements might be the reason someone like Patrick Vieira doesn't have a statue (and I'm okay with that), I care much more about their actions.

In terms of attitude, I'll take Xhaka over Aubameyang, Pépé, Maitland-Niles, or previously Øzil, any day of the week. Yes, they're not all exactly the same, but the theme is a lack of effort and application on the training ground and then on the pitch. And I have no time for that whatsoever.

At the other end of the pubic statement spectrum, I don't care what Aubameyang says in interviews about loving Arsenal or loving being captain - turn up to training and give your best, play with hunger and aggression without the coach having to constantly flatter your ego in public to push you to do it. Xhaka doesn't need a coach to draw his best effort out of him - he's up for it every single time he steps on a football pitch, sometimes a little too up for it. He no doubt rakes calves in training to get the win. I want that!

If it takes ridding the squad of every last one of the slackers in order to re-establish a culture of professionalism and commitment then I am all for it, however talented they are. No one individual is more important to the fortunes of the club than fixing the broken culture that has plagued it for a decade or more. Enough is enough.

Clrnc

It's pretty annoying we can't have a discussion without people calling each other to have an agenda or predisposed when there are valid points made. I mean we have all been here for long enough and its a pretty small community, don't think there's any need for those posts.

Clrnc

Ricky1985 wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Literally only mentioned two examples and none of them were about his ability.

I don't hold the quotes against him. Arsenal legends of yesteryear have said far, far worse, and whilst disloyal public statements might be the reason someone like Patrick Vieira doesn't have a statue (and I'm okay with that), I care much more about their actions.

In terms of attitude, I'll take Xhaka over Aubameyang, Pépé, Maitland-Niles, or previously Øzil, any day of the week. Yes, they're not all exactly the same, but the theme is a lack of effort and application on the training ground and then on the pitch. And I have no time for that whatsoever.

I can't judge them in training and I don't think anyone of us are in a position to say for sure as well, but Pepe Aubameyang and AMN whenever they played this season, good or bad it is never due to a lack of effort. In fact I am very very impressed by Pepe whenever he played, tracking back, working hard, harder than Saka for example. AMN IMO never had a bad game this year too and worked hard in CM when he played, got 2 MOTM iirc.

Aubameyang is more subjective but his poor form might be down to him and Arteta not seeing eye to eye. He didn't show a lack of effort to me.

Xhaka on the other hand, more often that not is horrible tracking back and lazy to track runners. He might be the first to turn up in training and last to go, and most vocal on the pitch but there's seriously a favourable treatment to him as compared to others who did far less and got banished. I don't think anyone can argue that. Look at the reaction to Pepe's red card compared to Xhaka's red card.

Ricky1985

Arteta has made reference to application in training being an issue countless times with the players I mentioned. And it tallies with what I have seen on the pitch in their Arsenal careers.

Pépé has worked hard and I applaud him for that, but then he throws in a game where he plays like he literally couldn't give a monkeys, as I think he did in the Palace game a couple of months ago. Aubameyang is exactly the same - he has worked much harder than he used to, but then he eases off, and I think we saw that in the few appearances leading up to his being dropped. Maitland-Niles just isn't worth duscussing. I like the kid's talent to an extent, but he's a joker. Rely on him at your peril.

I would say you can't teach an old dog new tricks, but Maitland-Niles being only 22 when Arteta took over shows it's probably better to try and sign players with these character traits than to try to make them.

The issue I have is effort, I'm not conflating that with lack of ability - it frustrates me no end because when these guys play with fire in their belly, they are quality players, especially Pépé and Aubameyang. Xhaka is the exact opposite to me - he always plays with fire in his belly, but he's athletically challenged, a bit thick on the pitch, and watching him try to play delicate passing football reminds me of something about using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. He is not as talented as these guys, but, in my opinion, he will run through brick walls for you.

QuincyAbeyie

Exactly, Clrnc. So it doesn't seem like it's about their actions either, because what we're seeing on the pitch doesn't even support that. When Pépé loses the ball it's throwing the game but if Xhaka does it it's just being a bit thick. I don't see a single bad thing Pepe does on the field that Xhaka hasn't also done.

Burnwinter

Clrnc wrote:
In fact I am very very impressed by Pepe whenever he played, tracking back, working hard, harder than Saka for example.

That's what I feel like I've been seeing, there's a couple of columns out there at the moment stating Pépé can't follow Arteta's positional tactics that I felt were practically gaslighting me.

Ricky1985

I was struck by how many times Pépé pressed the wrong man or closed off the wrong passing angle, as I saw it, against Sunderland. I think it stood out to me because Saka is so excellent at those things. So, I do think there's a problem there.

And I think he does lack the fire in his intensity in the same way I feel Aubameyang does. Even when they're pushed and willing, they lack it. And then as soon as they're comfortable, or for any number of reasons, they slip back a little and the work rate drops.

I don't see that same problem with Xhaka at all.

Ray

It’s incredibly naive to think Arteta (or any manager) treats everyone in the team the same. Biases exist whether unconscious or not.

Shady

I've seen Xhaka's intensity drop many times. He gets complacent and makes sloppy passes, gets caught in possession, lets opponents run off him.

Maybe he fools people with his pointing and arguing.

Mirth

Ricky1985 wrote:
I was struck by how many times Pépé pressed the wrong man or closed off the wrong passing angle, as I saw it, against Sunderland. I think it stood out to me because Saka is so excellent at those things. So, I do think there's a problem there.

And I think he does lack the fire in his intensity in the same way I feel Aubameyang does. Even when they're pushed and willing, they lack it. And then as soon as they're comfortable, or for any number of reasons, they slip back a little and the work rate drops.

Don't disagree that Pepe is a level below Saka or that he's inconsistent in his application.

However does that justify dropping him for 6-7 weeks when he's, at the very least, got a goal or assist in him? Even aside from how he could contribute to the first time, this is actively killing his value when we do look to sell. For a club with limited resources we sure are happy to let the assets we do have to erode.

Qwiss

Ricky1985 wrote:
Pépé has worked hard and I applaud him for that, but then he throws in a game where he plays like he literally couldn't give a monkeys, as I think he did in the Palace game a couple of months ago. Aubameyang is exactly the same - he has worked much harder than he used to, but then he eases off, and I think we saw that in the few appearances leading up to his being dropped. Maitland-Niles just isn't worth duscussing. I like the kid's talent to an extent, but he's a joker. Rely on him at your peril.

This is all very selective. Pepe wasn't great in that game but he created a goal despite his poor overall performance. The thing is everyone else had poor performances too without any repercussions. There is always one rule for Pepe and another rule for others. Thats absolutely clear.

Aubameyangs been working extremely hard this season. His attitude has always been good but yeah his time keeping never has. But its not a new thing, its always been part of him. It was at Dortmund and I don't believe for one second it wasn't present at Arsenal before Arteta gave him the new deal. Whats dropped off is his form and thats the reason he's been thrown under the bus now.

Writing off AMN as if he doesn't matter is just a way to avoid the issue. He's asked to leave because he wants to play and been told no. So he stayed and every time he's been given a chance this season he's done well. Looks to have matured quite a bit in his game, his concentration is much improved. Yet now Elneny is getting minutes ahead of him. A much worse player who's going to AFCON next month and is out of contract in the summer. Its ridiculous.
Then theres Chambers, Mari, Kolasinac, Nketiah, etc who've been kept at the club for no good reason and barely given a sniff. Its awful man and squad management all round.

Don Pacifico

For all the weird man management choices Arteta has made (Pepe and Auba probably being the most obvious ones), I don't see a great deal of public dissent from the players (aside from Guendouzi and Saliba) and if anything you see the opposite response.

So as an entirely genuine question, are the relationships he's built with the squad potentially not that bad?

Shady

Is public dissent that common though? It feels like we've had a lot more of it than most other clubs as it is.

Qwiss

Saliba, Guendouzi, AMN, Ozil have all publicly dissented. His own favourite Xhaka was sending another manager messages about how much he loved him in the summer. I'd say thats plenty for 2 years as manager. He's very lucky Pepe and Auba have been quiet about their issues with him.

QuincyAbeyie

And you can't both use the public dissent against the players and then use the fact that Pepe and Auba aren't saying anything as evidence that there isn't dissent.

Don Pacifico

Shady wrote:
Is public dissent that common though? It feels like we've had a lot more of it than most other clubs as it is.

Qwiss! wrote:
Saliba, Guendouzi, AMN, Ozil have all publicly dissented. His own favourite Xhaka was sending another manager messages about how much he loved him in the summer. I'd say thats plenty for 2 years as manager. He's very lucky Pepe and Auba have been quiet about their issues with him.

I'd forgotten about AMN. I probably wouldn't consider Xhaka to be public dissent as such given he was out the exit door more or less but potentially splitting hairs. I think the fact that Auba has been quiet given how extroverted he is, is probably quite telling.

Either way, I think because we live in an Arsenal microclimate, it can feel more dramatic and worse than it is. But when I compare the way players reacted to Emery and how they seem to react to Arteta, there does seem to be a difference but that might just be my perspective.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
And you can't both use the public dissent against the players and then use the fact that Pepe and Auba aren't saying anything as evidence that there isn't dissent.

Fair. But I guess what I see on the pitch (now at least) are players that want to impress the manager. We were all talking about Pepe's application and performance the other day - maybe Arteta is managing him sufficiently well to get these performances even if we all think he should play more often?

I think overall, there are some decisions that do seem odd (from the outside looking in at least) but the application on the pitch seems like o suggest it's not all bad.

Burnwinter

Don Pacifico wrote:
For all the weird man management choices Arteta has made (Pepe and Auba probably being the most obvious ones), I don't see a great deal of public dissent from the players (aside from Guendouzi and Saliba) and if anything you see the opposite response.

So as an entirely genuine question, are the relationships he's built with the squad potentially not that bad?

Yeah, we don't know what the overall feeling is. I was surprised by the positive or indifferent reaction to Auba getting dropped and publicly dragged. I'm in favour of qualifying criticisms with the uncertainty of the info we have.

What we know is we've got several players who aren't getting opportunities, some at least are frustrated, some at least are clearly useful footballers, some have lost value in the transfer market, and sometimes they could have played without detriment to our results. Perhaps this is just what peak managerial performance looks like—but it seems more likely some fuckups are happening.

Clrnc

Qwiss! wrote:
Ricky1985 wrote:
Pépé has worked hard and I applaud him for that, but then he throws in a game where he plays like he literally couldn't give a monkeys, as I think he did in the Palace game a couple of months ago. Aubameyang is exactly the same - he has worked much harder than he used to, but then he eases off, and I think we saw that in the few appearances leading up to his being dropped. Maitland-Niles just isn't worth duscussing. I like the kid's talent to an extent, but he's a joker. Rely on him at your peril.

This is all very selective. Pepe wasn't great in that game but he created a goal despite his poor overall performance. The thing is everyone else had poor performances too without any repercussions. There is always one rule for Pepe and another rule for others. Thats absolutely clear.

Aubameyangs been working extremely hard this season. His attitude has always been good but yeah his time keeping never has. But its not a new thing, its always been part of him. It was at Dortmund and I don't believe for one second it wasn't present at Arsenal before Arteta gave him the new deal. Whats dropped off is his form and thats the reason he's been thrown under the bus now.

Writing off AMN as if he doesn't matter is just a way to avoid the issue. He's asked to leave because he wants to play and been told no. So he stayed and every time he's been given a chance this season he's done well. Looks to have matured quite a bit in his game, his concentration is much improved. Yet now Elneny is getting minutes ahead of him. A much worse player who's going to AFCON next month and is out of contract in the summer. Its ridiculous.
Then theres Chambers, Mari, Kolasinac, Nketiah, etc who've been kept at the club for no good reason and barely given a sniff. Its awful man and squad management all round.

Yeah that's exactly what I meant. When Ricky pointed out the examples it's even more clear it's actually very selective and biased from Arteta given that those actions on the pitch is pretty nothing and we have seen that more from other players. This kind of man management won't go far. He just treat people he feels like it. The Pepe not even getting 5i mins at the end over a Tavares or Elneny sub has been discussed to death, but AMN getting Motm performances in the 2 matches he started and then subsequently get no clear chances again despite being promised chances for staying is mind boggling. He has played better than Lokonga in the 2 matches for e.g.

If you look at Nketiah for example it is also very weird. He gets zero chances for almost a year then suddenly get apps again when he has made clear he wants to leave. There's no concrete plan at all and everything is random

Ray

Tbf he convinced Auba to sign, then Balogun and I wouldn’t be surprised if he got Nketiah to sign. He’s obviously good at convincing people.

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