Arsenal exits Jan 2022: Page 63 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Arsenal exits Jan 2022

Gazza M

why move the goalposts? all that's been said is arteta hasn't blooded many young players during his time at arsenal, even compared to the previous coach who gave the likes of martinelli, saka, willock, guendouzi and nketiah their breaks. 2 of those guys could be major stars for us, and one may fetch a 30m fee, and the other 2 maybe 20m between them. none of that happens if unai emery doesn't make the decision to bring them through

Clrnc

It's clear Arteta read about Willian critics in the media. He literally said it in the presser he knows about it and it's up to Willian to prove people wrong. He was played lesser after that although still preferred as an option whenever possible

Claudius

Gazza M wrote:
why move the goalposts? all that's been said is arteta hasn't blooded many young players during his time at arsenal, even compared to the previous coach who gave the likes of martinelli, saka, willock, guendouzi and nketiah their breaks. 2 of those guys could be major stars for us, and one may fetch a 30m fee, and the other 2 maybe 20m between them. none of that happens if unai emery doesn't make the decision to bring them through

I’m not shifting goalposts.
I just don’t get this fascination that people have that Arsenal is an academy. We aren’t here for blooding youths. We are here to put good players on the field. And kids like Martinelli, ESR and Saka have proven themselves to be that, so they play. There’s a very clear relationship here. Guys like Nketiah and AMN etc are decent players. They are not going to define Arsenal’s ultimate outcome.

I’m waiting though - show me the youth centric team that is the model we should follow. When you guys come up with your endless critiques, it would be good to have a model of this is what good looks like elsewhere, and we should follow it. The way others have said Arsenal can do better in transfers because Leicester and Liverpool with similar or smaller budgets are able to do better, etc.

QuincyAbeyie

Someone is saying they think AMN should've played instead of Cedric and your response is "show me a team that has a perfect youth centric team then". Not shifting goalposts at all.

Rohit

That is such a strawman. No one has asked for a shift to a model that emphasizes developing academy graduates. The contention is whether our manager in his first full season where he finished 8th, lower than our squad warranted, could have played some younger players with greater upside more, instead of extremely average regressing experienced players that were anyways putting in points costing performances. This doesn't include players that are already better than their experienced counter parts.

Seemingly Arteta has done or can do no wrong. I am not even decided on Arteta either way but some of the defenses for him are just mind boggling.

goon

I will never know why the Martinelli thing became so huge. 19yr old with barely a season of top flight experience comes back after 8 months out with a serious injury and plays 22 games.

As for Ainsley, Cedric started 1 league game before he left. I doubt that would have made a huge difference to his development or substandard performances.

Clrnc

Rohit wrote:
Seemingly Arteta has done or can do no wrong. I am not even decided on Arteta either way but some of the defenses for him are just mind boggling.

Exactly.

Claude, you are not understanding the argument again. I think it's not unfair to say Arteta is a cautious manager who always prefers experience over youth whenever he can. His many decisions and team selection speak volume. Whatever else you are arguing is not relevant to this discussion, as well as your stats about how Saka gets a lot of minutes etc. They are not representative of the full circumstances. People even forget that Saka didn't even start in the first 2 of our 3 fixtures when we are playing 352, he only came in as a LWB when AMN was dropped.

When we talk about blooding youngsters, it is giving minutes and chances to players not the finished article and bringing them through from the youth team. Like what Emery did with Guendouzi, Willock, AMN, Nelson, Nketiah etc. Not preferring Elneny, Cedric, Willian etc.

My favorite shifting goalposts and mind boggling defence is when he keep breaking Pepe momentum when he was dropped after good performances to start Willian, but now it became that he made Pepe the player he is. 😆

QuincyAbeyie

goon wrote:
As for Ainsley, Cedric started 1 league game before he left.

That's a weird argument when the wanted outcome (for some, including me) would've been to keep AMN instead of bringing in Cedric. Why would you not include games Cedric played after he left? Surely those are games where Cedric was preferred to AMN since the former was brought in and the latter sent out.

Claudius

Rohit wrote:
That is such a strawman. No one has asked for a shift to a model that emphasizes developing academy graduates. The contention is whether our manager in his first full season where he finished 8th, lower than our squad warranted, could have played some younger players with greater upside more, instead of extremely average regressing experienced players that were anyways putting in points costing performances. This doesn't include players that are already better than their experienced counter parts.

Seemingly Arteta has done or can do no wrong. I am not even decided on Arteta either way but some of the defenses for him are just mind boggling.

The point is there are one million things you can beat Arteta about. He’s an inexperienced coach making tactical mistakes. But this youth thing is sooooooooooo off the mark it’s not funny. Talk about playing Xhaka too long at left back, struggling to get offense going, failure to get the team out of a tailspin in November. We could go on forever. There’s unlimited content.

Claudius

Clrnc wrote:
Rohit wrote:
Seemingly Arteta has done or can do no wrong. I am not even decided on Arteta either way but some of the defenses for him are just mind boggling.

Exactly.

Claude, you are not understanding the argument again. I think it's not unfair to say Arteta is a cautious manager who always prefers experience over youth whenever he can. His many decisions and team selection speak volume. Whatever else you are arguing is not relevant to this discussion, as well as your stats about how Saka gets a lot of minutes etc. They are not representative of the full circumstances. People even forget that Saka didn't even start in the first 2 of our 3 fixtures when we are playing 352, he only came in as a LWB when AMN was dropped.

When we talk about blooding youngsters, it is giving minutes and chances to players not the finished article and bringing them through from the youth team. Like what Emery did with Guendouzi, Willock, AMN, Nelson, Nketiah etc. Not preferring Elneny, Cedric, Willian etc.

My favorite shifting goalposts and mind boggling defence is when he keep breaking Pepe momentum when he was dropped after good performances to start Willian, but now it became that he made Pepe the player he is. 😆

Just a basic question. How many games did Willock play last season? About 35? Was he the finished article when he was getting all those games? I’m really not missing the mark here. The facts support me.

goon

Clrnc wrote:
Rohit wrote:
Seemingly Arteta has done or can do no wrong. I am not even decided on Arteta either way but some of the defenses for him are just mind boggling.

Exactly.

Claude, you are not understanding the argument again. I think it's not unfair to say Arteta is a cautious manager who always prefers experience over youth whenever he can. His many decisions and team selection speak volume. Whatever else you are arguing is not relevant to this discussion, as well as your stats about how Saka gets a lot of minutes etc. They are not representative of the full circumstances. People even forget that Saka didn't even start in the first 2 of our 3 fixtures when we are playing 352, he only came in as a LWB when AMN was dropped.

When we talk about blooding youngsters, it is giving minutes and chances to players not the finished article and bringing them through from the youth team. Like what Emery did with Guendouzi, Willock, AMN, Nelson, Nketiah etc. Not preferring Elneny, Cedric, Willian etc.

My favorite shifting goalposts and mind boggling defence is when he keep breaking Pepe momentum when he was dropped after good performances to start Willian, but now it became that he made Pepe the player he is. 😆

Emery gave mins to Mkhi over Nelson, Lichtsteiner over AMN and loaned out Eddie, who Arteta recalled and handed a total of 30 league appearances including a handful of starts despite it being a position with 2 high profile strikers ahead of him. And if we're talking about Pepe too, both Emery and Freddie benched him repeatedly.

As for Arteta can do no wrong, I'd be willing to bet if you went through my and Clauds posts, you'll find plenty of criticism, it just doesn't trigger supposedly fair and objective folks on the forum in the same way.

HomeSteak

This should go down well with our fan base

Anzac

Rohit wrote:
That is such a strawman. No one has asked for a shift to a model that emphasizes developing academy graduates. The contention is whether our manager in his first full season where he finished 8th, lower than our squad warranted, could have played some younger players with greater upside more, instead of extremely average regressing experienced players that were anyways putting in points costing performances. This doesn't include players that are already better than their experienced counter parts.

Seemingly Arteta has done or can do no wrong. I am not even decided on Arteta either way but some of the defenses for him are just mind boggling.

IMO many are still confusing individual player quality for being a squad that is fit for purpose, and more so in terms of the style of play.
As it stands either our CFs do not 'fit' our defence and midfield, or visa versa.

IMO the objective should always be about HOW you are going to score goals so as to win the game & more so in a 3 point league table, rather than how you are going to stop the opposition from scoring. A draw is not one point saved as opposed to being 2 points dropped/lost. The first part to that answer would be your style and tactics, and then the types of players needed to execute/achieve that objective.

That said this has nothing to do with why I want Arteta Out, which has more to do with the UEL S/F and him being too smart for his own good and no solid proof as to what his complete style of play is about (we've seen glimpses in part but nothing complete or sustained), and not having the creds to attract the quality players on a restricted budget to regain top4 this season. Further to that IMO our football operation lacks experience, and I would want to replace both manager and TD/DoF with experience and outcomes, and even more so IF KSE were going to provide additional funding to rebuild with the quaity needed to firstly regain top4, and then to retain it.

FEBravo

Is he really that deluded? So he thinks he played really well and the team let him down?

Anzac

HomeSteak wrote:

This should go down well with our fan base

Deluded fucker - how many points did he cost us either directly through errors leading to goals, or indirectly by putting us under pressure the created a turn over for the opposition to score in this season alone.

It's a slap in the face for both Arteta and the players = don't let the door hit you on your way out c*nt.

goon

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
goon wrote:
As for Ainsley, Cedric started 1 league game before he left.

That's a weird argument when the wanted outcome (for some, including me) would've been to keep AMN instead of bringing in Cedric. Why would you not include games Cedric played after he left? Surely those are games where Cedric was preferred to AMN since the former was brought in and the latter sent out.

It's not, because one is worth £15m+ while the other is a cheap backup. One is happy enough to play a handful of league games to act as cover, the other isn't (rightly so) and doesn't even want to play as a fullback anyway. This is exactly why I wanted us to sell him last summer (or sell Hector and make him our starting RB). He's worth too much and clearly unhappy playing the utility role.

Clrnc

goon wrote:
And if we're talking about Pepe too, both Emery and Freddie benched him repeatedly.

That's all fine, but then people warped it to Arteta made Pepe the player he is and that is really funny.

Clrnc

goon wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
That's a weird argument when the wanted outcome (for some, including me) would've been to keep AMN instead of bringing in Cedric. Why would you not include games Cedric played after he left? Surely those are games where Cedric was preferred to AMN since the former was brought in and the latter sent out.

It's not, because one is worth £15m+ while the other is a cheap backup. One is happy enough to play a handful of league games to act as cover, the other isn't (rightly so) and doesn't even want to play as a fullback anyway. This is exactly why I wanted us to sell him last summer (or sell Hector and make him our starting RB). He's worth too much and clearly unhappy playing the utility role.

He has mentioned that he see himself as a CM but also said countless of times he is happy to play wherever our manager wants to play him at as long as he can help the team. I think the rest of the questions about his commitment, happiness, attitude are just wild guesses.

QuincyAbeyie

Selling Bellerin would've been the ideal thing to do last summer.

If Xhaka is saying that you're only as good as your team I wonder what he'll think about Roma 😆

Qwiss

Claudius wrote:
So he plays him because he is our best player? I think you’re just making the bloody point that he plays the best players wherever possible.

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