Arsenal exits Jan 2022: Page 129 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Arsenal exits Jan 2022

goon

I actually think Wenger is the perfect example of what happens with a lack of coaching and relying on players. Sometimes it works great and produces some real magic, but if opponents set up well the lack of trained movement was infuriating, especially when you're dealing with players who are not as cunning as the likes of Thierry.

Coombs

It's not an either or, though. It's a question of balance (and having good ideas in the first place). While we may find the balance with this new-look squad, the ideas need to evolve dramatically as well to get where we want to go.

Anzac

goon wrote:
I actually think Wenger is the perfect example of what happens with a lack of coaching and relying on players. Sometimes it works great and produces some real magic, but if opponents set up well the lack of trained movement was infuriating, especially when you're dealing with players who are not as cunning as the likes of Thierry.

Agreed when there is no basic tactical play to fall back on if things aren't going well.

I keep thinking about the various reports of Cruyff and Guardiola using tactics to get the ball into the final 3rd and then allowing the players to make the decisions as to how to finish it off to score, and the reports of LvG having the tactic also applied in the final 3rd. I think the quality and type of players can impact both styles in regards to being 'fit for purpose'.

I think it will also be interesting to see if the role of the wide men changes if we move to a 433, and more so if we play with a midfield V with 2 CMs playing as #8/10s. ATM the wide men come inside and this may be causing Pepe's issues in controlling the ball if he is looking to receive it if he is trying to do so with his left foot and wanting to come inside at the same time, whereas a swap to the left flank may see him being more effective if playing with more verticality.

Captain

goon wrote:
I actually think Wenger is the perfect example of what happens with a lack of coaching and relying on players. Sometimes it works great and produces some real magic, but if opponents set up well the lack of trained movement was infuriating, especially when you're dealing with players who are not as cunning as the likes of Thierry.

Having watched neither Emery or Arteta manage to replicate what even Wenger's worse teams were capable of, you still believe that myth?

Anzac

Captain wrote:
goon wrote:
I actually think Wenger is the perfect example of what happens with a lack of coaching and relying on players. Sometimes it works great and produces some real magic, but if opponents set up well the lack of trained movement was infuriating, especially when you're dealing with players who are not as cunning as the likes of Thierry.

Having watched neither Emery or Arteta manage to replicate what even Wenger's worse teams were capable of, you still believe that myth?

Depends on what you mean by replicating = Emery lost a UEFA Final and Arteta won an FA Cup.

Captain

I'm talking about the idea that Wenger didn't drill our attacking play within an inch of it's life. The patterns were clear. It created heart warming football for the large part. It's nonsense to think the Wenger just ' let them work it out' in 2021.

Captain

'Lack of coaching' is an insane accusation to throw these days. And honestly, I don't really care for quotes from anyone backing up the idea - the proof is on the pitch.

Clrnc

To be fair it's not an accusation. More than one ex footballer said Wenger gave them a lot of freedom compared to other coaches when they attack and position themselves. That is why our attack was always fluid and Wenger signed attackers who was intelligent enough. Of course he did attacking patterns and structures, but also gave tons of freedom as compared to these modern coaches. When Emery's team attack they looked like robots, doing the same move over and over again.

Don't need to discuss about Arteta because we hardly see our team attack for the past 2 years with any consistency to judge.

Captain

It's not an accusation, it's a myth. The untold attacking players who went on to achieve nothing are further evidence.

Good teachers make you think they're not teaching and you're discovering everything for yourself. It's an art.

goon

Captain wrote:
'Lack of coaching' is an insane accusation to throw these days. And honestly, I don't really care for quotes from anyone backing up the idea - the proof is on the pitch.

So you don't care what numerous first hand sources, including the man himself say? 😆

Not sure why you're taking it as a slight either, limiting how much you coach players, particularly with instructions on what to do on the pitch, and allowing them creative freedom to express themselves is in itself a valid philosophy and has some clear upsides. Wenger would have 100% gotten more attractive football out of this lot for example. I'm also fully in belief that it's responsible for a lot of players, from the likes of Thierry and Pires to Cesc, reaching their peaks.

The big downside comes when tactically astute sides set up with the sole intention of stopping you play and you don't have players intelligent enough to circumvent it, nor the trained patterns to work around it.

Captain

Who said it was a slight?

I'm telling you it is a myth that those attacking players 'lacked coaching'. It's absolute nonsense - if it were that simple, everyone would be doing it with ease, which clearly is not the case.

Clrnc

Captain wrote:
It's not an accusation, it's a myth. The untold attacking players who went on to achieve nothing are further evidence.

Good teachers make you think they're not teaching and you're discovering everything for yourself. It's an art.

Henry was one of them who said that, when mentioning the difference between him and Pep on MNF. To be clear, I don't find it a criticism. Just different coaching methods.

Of course by saying they had the attacking freedom don't equate to Wenger not coaching attacking patterns or implementing position structures. He is just not micromanaging them into robots

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert

I would kill for Wenger's non-coaching of attackers over any of the trash I've seen since his departure.

JazzG

What led to Wenger's downfall was mainly buying absolute shite like Lacazette/Xhaka/Mustafi in the last few years.

In our last season with Wenger we won 15 out of 19 home games and only Man City won more points at home or scored more goals at home. Away we were a shambles but I think a lot of that was down to the midfield. Man was holding this whole shitshow of a club together and only now people are realising this.

Ray

JazzG wrote:
What led to Wenger's downfall was mainly buying absolute shite like Lacazette/Xhaka/Mustafi in the last few years.

In our last season with Wenger we won 15 out of 19 home games and only Man City won more points at home or scored more goals at home. Away we were a shambles but I think a lot of that was down to the midfield. Man was holding this whole shitshow of a club together and only now people are realising this.

Almost like Arteta’s post Christmas form trophy.

Captain

Not really, because Artetas best got us 8th.

Captain

Not undermining the absolute shit-show that got us 6th under Wenger (whatever the circumstances), but there's levels to this.

Anzac

I think the difference is in regards to tactical coaching as opposed to any coaching full stop.

AW's coaching was based upon individual technique re close control and short passing & movement.
Then he had a basic tactic of using numbers through the middle of the pitch and playing into the area via zone14.
HOW they got there beyond that was essentially based upon intuitive play between the players and why we saw goals such as Wilshere v Norwich.

I do recall a comment from Garry Neville in his punditry after one game and he was pointing out a difference in our play compared to when he was playing, in that we no longer looked to use space ahead of the play and off the ball. IMO this was the outcome of the change with our possession based style post The Invincibles.

Another example about players figuring it out for themselves was from RVP who said AW told him if he figured out 1 part to his game he'd become a top class goal scorer for club and country. He said AW told the coaching staff they were not to tell him the answer and he had to figure it out for himself. RVP said it took him some time to do so but when he did it changed his game and AW was right. IIRC RVP was still with the club at the time and he did not elaborate on what the secret ingredient was.

flobaba

Sounds like some Kung fu panda dragon scroll ish

Anzac

flobaba wrote:
Sounds like some Kung fu panda dragon scroll ish

That would depend on what the secret ingredient was. My guess it had something to do with his movement with the change from being the SS to leading the line.
That said I do remember he had to learn to strike the ball differently so as to reduce the injuries to his feet, and his best run of games and form came after this.

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