Leeds United - Arsenal | Sunday, 16:30: Page 27 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Leeds United - Arsenal | Sunday, 16:30

Klaus

goon wrote:
KingslandBarge wrote:
Well said Coombs. Might be worth tempering a tad on Auba though If I may say so. He had a hard graft during the break and I think he did do everything well today beside the conversion. That too in a rare outing navigating two central defenders.

I hearts

I love Freddie but what is this nonsense? He left Ozil out of the squad in his last game ffs 😆

Because he didn't approve of his behaviour when getting substituted, not because he didn't approve of him as a player. The first thing he did when he took over was to put him back in the team.

Bosscielny

Qwiss! wrote:
naz wrote:
Nice of arteta to indirectly blame pepe for the match. No excuses for pepe but that's a little rich coming from him.

Stinks of a manager feeling the pressure TBH. Arteta was no angel himself so his attitude with Pepe now and Guendouzi before him is a bit much.

“Stinks” 😆

To me it sounds like a manager who is frustrated with a player, who, in between the two or three moments a game where he shows something special, looks like the worst player on the pitch. Not only does he look and act like a pub player for 85% of every game, but when he’s finally given the chance to start a game and make a case for himself, he fucks it for himself and us by headbutting someone.

Finding it hard to believe that someone is using Arteta’s playing career against him when it’s in relation to his justified disappointment towards Pepe and the bullshit he served up today. Real head scratcher that one.

goon

Klaus wrote:
goon wrote:
I love Freddie but what is this nonsense? He left Ozil out of the squad in his last game ffs 😆

Because he didn't approve of his behaviour when getting substituted, not because he didn't approve of him as a player. The first thing he did when he took over was to put him back in the team.

Which is exactly why he should sympathise with the current situation. Arteta started Ozil every single game pre-lockdown, it's obviously not because he doesn't rate him as a player either.

Klaus

goon wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Because he didn't approve of his behaviour when getting substituted, not because he didn't approve of him as a player. The first thing he did when he took over was to put him back in the team.

Which is exactly why he should sympathise with the current situation. Arteta started Ozil every single game pre-lockdown, it's obviously not because he doesn't rate him as a player either.

So what happened during lockdown then? Mesut refused to take a pay cut, which he by all accounts was right in doing too seeing as the club went ahead and sacked 60-ish people anyway? Hell of a thing to punish someone for, never mind dropping them from both the Europa League and the Premier League squad.

To be clear, I don't mind if Arteta is willing to die on this hill, he has every right to manage the team and the squad the way he wants, but he will be judged by the decisions he makes just like anyone else. It's not good enough to say it's not up to him because it is. Picking the squad is one of few things that is one hundred percent his responsibility. When your team can't score for eight hours and creates a relegation-level number of chances people will wonder why you have a guy like Özil sitting at home and playing Fortnite for the rest of the season. Even an inconsistent and less dynamic Özil compared to a few years ago would be useful to at least have as an option, but we don't even have that anymore.

Bosscielny

Klaus wrote:
goon wrote:
I love Freddie but what is this nonsense? He left Ozil out of the squad in his last game ffs 😆

Because he didn't approve of his behaviour when getting substituted, not because he didn't approve of him as a player. The first thing he did when he took over was to put him back in the team.

Ozil started Arteta’s first game in charge too...

It took Freddie what, three or four games to get tired of Ozil and his attitude? His behaviour, and attitude in general, is the reason he’s not playing now, not because Mikel doesn’t see quality in him. He obviously does, because “the first thing he did when he took over was the put him back in the team”.

goon

Klaus wrote:
goon wrote:
Which is exactly why he should sympathise with the current situation. Arteta started Ozil every single game pre-lockdown, it's obviously not because he doesn't rate him as a player either.

So what happened during lockdown then? Mesut refused to take a pay cut, which he by all accounts was right in doing too seeing as the club went ahead and sacked 60-ish people anyway? Hell of a thing to punish someone for, never mind dropping them from both the Europa League and the Premier League squad.

To be clear, I don't mind if Arteta is willing to die on this hill, he has every right to manage the team and the squad the way he wants, but he will be judged by the decisions he makes. When you can't score for eight hours and create a relegation-level number of chances people will wonder why you have a guy like Özil sitting at home and playing Fortnite for the rest of the season.

Oh yeah, I think Arteta made exactly the same point before this game. But then he'd be judged if he kept picking him too, in fact that's exactly what was happening pre-lockdown. Got accused of picking his buddy.

Who knows what actually happened during lockdown, there's all sorts of stories out there. But ultimately if he's found himself unregistered then whatever it is obviously made his position untenable, and given the way Freddie dealt with Ozil's reaction to being substituted, I'm not convinced he'd have dealt with it any differently.

The last point I'd make is that Ozil created 1 big chance in the entirety of last season. You'd think from the discussion on Sky, who are the first to pile on Ozil when he IS playing, that we've left him out after he amassed 19 assists. I'd expect it from a clown like Evra, I'd expect better from Freddie.

QuincyAbeyie

Özil was even injured the game after his reaction to being subbed off and Ljungberg still made a point out of saying that even if Özil was fit he wouldn't have picked him. 😆

goon

😆

Klaus

goon wrote:
The last point I'd make is that Ozil created 1 big chance in the entirety of last season.

I don't know according to which stats or how they were composed, but there's also the Opta version (which strictly speaking doesn't contradict your stat) :

People would ask questions from any manager that doesn't perform after making a statement by dropping him from the club completely.

goon

The PL don't list chances created for some reason, only big chances created, which I understand is basically the next best thing to an assist.

Under that category, Ozil came joint 10th behind Sokratis (2), Luiz (2), and Chambers (4). Pepe, Auba and Saka were our top three last year with 8, 7 and 6 respectively.

I do think our football would be marginally better with Ozil in the team, at least intermittently, just not in a way that would make any real difference.

Claudius

Something I’ve never seen before

the top 23 pass combinations were all between Leeds players
and 29 of the top 30 pass combinations were Leeds players. The only Arsenal entry being Gabriel to Leno at 24.

All that was was more alarming than Leeds 66% possession. Their last few games they’ve been getting 55-65% possession, so this was on the upper end of that. Bielsa with better players would be interesting

Klaus

goon wrote:
I do think our football would be marginally better with Ozil in the team, at least intermittently, just not in a way that would make any real difference.

I don't think he's a magic bullet either, but I think there's definitely a discussion to be had about the way we constantly favour workrate over ability in this side. With Özil it's not just the assists and chances either, it's the passes that open up play and finds passing angles that other players don't. Opponents can't shrink the playing field for us the same way. That's not unimportant, and it's something we're almost always better at when he is on the pitch. Other players around him score or assist a lot more frequently too even if he's not the one getting the assist. It doesn't show up in stats but it's a key part of attacking football. How often do we have to turn an attack around because we get closed down? When you watch our games you can see how opponents in low blocks go up to press when our central midfielders get the ball because they're too slow and take too many touches. It's always the mark they're setting.

Gazza M

Once it became apparent we had a cjance creation problem it was only a matter of time before ozil became a discussion topic again. Id rather we didnt bother, the gains would be marginal at best and arteta wouldve undermined himself. The problem he has is you can be a hardass with standards only for as long as you keep getting results. If youre a hardass and the team is playing like shit eventually you lose everyone, and get a rep as a guy prone to alienating people even if it was justified in the first place

Burnwinter

The idea that Özil is going to save us seems misplaced. I guess he might put some effort in in order to win another contract elsewhere this season, but that's about the best you can hope for and it seems a stretch.

I fully support the actions of three successive Arsenal managers in sidelining Özil for his effort, his attitude and his overall contribution.

Bosscielny

The tiny amount Ozil might potentially improve us isn’t worth Arteta jeopardising his principals.

Someone asked before, aside from the FA Cup win what else has he achieved? As if winning a trophy is something to disregard so easily. Anyway, the culture and atmosphere surrounding the club is what he’s achieved. Every player who was asked about him over the summer couldn’t speak higher of the guy. Just because we’ve turned on Arteta after a few bad results, hopefully doesn’t mean the players have too. If he starts compromising now then it’s only going to make things worse for him.

Honestly can’t understand people shitting on him already. There’s zero point of hiring a rookie if you’re going to turn on him the second you hit a rough patch.

Being upset about results is fair enough. But it’s pretty obvious who’s willing to give the guy a chance and who is waiting for dropped points so they can jump all over the bloke and throw whatever they can at him.

Clrnc

goon wrote:
KingslandBarge wrote:
Well said Coombs. Might be worth tempering a tad on Auba though If I may say so. He had a hard graft during the break and I think he did do everything well today beside the conversion. That too in a rare outing navigating two central defenders.

I hearts

I love Freddie but what is this nonsense? He left Ozil out of the squad in his last game ffs 😆

I watched the entire show, a lot of things he was saying wasn't consistent with his actions as our manager during the 1.5 months here. He gives me the feeling he is just saying things to put Arteta in a bad light.

Anzac

Ozil played until the break in last season as we played 4231 = he had a position he was suited to.

At the re-start we initially tried 433 before we moved to the 343 after the consecutive losses to MC & BHA. In both these formations there is no CAM, and in the 2 CM midfield the initial priority has been defensive cover to the hybrid back-line that has Tierney looking to get forward in the final 3rd despite supposedly playing as LCB in a back3.

At the time Ozil was not registered we were still playing 343, and this is the first PL game we have clearly changed formation since he was not registered. Despite using the 4231 in this game 'everyone' seems to be of the opinion Arteta's formation of choice is a 433, which does not use a CAM and has no position for Ozil.

To put it in simple terms it's not a case of Ozil being able/suited to play in any other position like Arteta/Cazorla/Rambo/Wilshere/KdB/Silva = he is more Riquelme in that he is a 1 position/role elite level specialist. For him to be selected not only do we need to change our shape we also need to carry him in order for him to be effective, which is also dependent upon him allowed to be a final 3rd only player.
The question then becomes is it worth it to do so for the limited time he has remaining at the club, after which we would need to start over once again? IMO at this point the answer is simply, no.

Captain

Arteta's football is trash and people will only accept it if we're winning.

To me, it looks like it's actually getting worse with each passing week, but this is where we are.

Captain

Anzac wrote:
Ozil played until the break in last season as we played 4231 = he had a position he was suited to.

At the re-start we initially tried 433 before we moved to the 343 after the consecutive losses to MC & BHA. In both these formations there is no CAM, and in the 2 CM midfield the initial priority has been defensive cover to the hybrid back-line that has Tierney looking to get forward in the final 3rd despite supposedly playing as LCB in a back3.

At the time Ozil was not registered we were still playing 343, and this is the first PL game we have clearly changed formation since he was not registered. Despite using the 4231 in this game 'everyone' seems to be of the opinion Arteta's formation of choice is a 433, which does not use a CAM and has no position for Ozil.

To put it in simple terms it's not a case of Ozil being able/suited to play in any other position like Arteta/Cazorla/Rambo/Wilshere/KdB/Silva = he is more Riquelme in that he is a 1 position/role elite level specialist. For him to be selected not only do we need to change our shape we also need to carry him in order for him to be effective, which is also dependent upon him allowed to be a final 3rd only player.
The question then becomes is it worth it to do so for the limited time he has remaining at the club, after which we would need to start over once again? IMO at this point the answer is simply, no.

His time at madrid, arsenal and with his national team disagree.

Anzac

Captain wrote:
Anzac wrote:
Ozil played until the break in last season as we played 4231 = he had a position he was suited to.

At the re-start we initially tried 433 before we moved to the 343 after the consecutive losses to MC & BHA. In both these formations there is no CAM, and in the 2 CM midfield the initial priority has been defensive cover to the hybrid back-line that has Tierney looking to get forward in the final 3rd despite supposedly playing as LCB in a back3.

At the time Ozil was not registered we were still playing 343, and this is the first PL game we have clearly changed formation since he was not registered. Despite using the 4231 in this game 'everyone' seems to be of the opinion Arteta's formation of choice is a 433, which does not use a CAM and has no position for Ozil.

To put it in simple terms it's not a case of Ozil being able/suited to play in any other position like Arteta/Cazorla/Rambo/Wilshere/KdB/Silva = he is more Riquelme in that he is a 1 position/role elite level specialist. For him to be selected not only do we need to change our shape we also need to carry him in order for him to be effective, which is also dependent upon him allowed to be a final 3rd only player.
The question then becomes is it worth it to do so for the limited time he has remaining at the club, after which we would need to start over once again? IMO at this point the answer is simply, no.

His time at madrid, arsenal and with his national team disagree.

With what part?

IMO his time at both RM and the national team are irrelevant to his current performances and stats in terms of his effectiveness the further he is from 'the hole'/zone14. Same applies in terms of his career & performances here, and even more so that he no longer has the players around him at the level of performance capability to provide him with the movement required - there is no one making the movement off the ball.
Is he an elite level attacking playmaker? = yes. Is he a specialist = yes. Is he worth the effort & disruption required for the last 6 months on his contract? = no. Is he going to be given another contract at this club to make that ongoing disruption/investment worthwhile? = no. If the answer to any of these last 2 is yes then the club needs to tell this to the manager and/or replace him accordingly.

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