jones wrote:

RocktheCasbah wrote:

And are you seriously suggesting the German clique was one worth persevering with?

Disregarding everything else said - Arteta himself offered Mustafi a new contract, he clearly thought he was worth persevering with himself. That was during the summer of 2020 by the way same summer where Arteta couldn't find room for Saliba but registered Mustafi and Kolasinac who racked up a combined four league and five EL appearances between them afterwards, six months later Mustafi got his contract terminated and Kola left on loan to Schalke.

That's fair enough, I'd forgotten about that contract offer, which was a real head scratcher. But I do also think that throwing Saliba into what was clearly a difficult environment two summers ago would have been asking a lot of a kid. That's not to say the situation couldn't have been handled better - but I'm not sure, much as we all wanted to see it, we'd have been any better off giving Salba the minutes that went to Mustafi instead. 

RocktheCasbah wrote:

Arteta literally won the FA Cup after 7 months in charge, beating City and Chelsea at Wembley, but okay.

Di Matteo won the Champions League with Chelsea and then proved to be not good enough. So what?

goon wrote:

Shady wrote:

Arteta is an inexperienced manager who has achieved fuck all in the game. He struggles with tricky characters and bins them off. It seems all you need to do is be subservient to the manager and you are untouchable. Arteta is probably so grateful to just have a group that are willing to follow his instructions that he will forgive the lack of quality. Most of our outgoing seem to be personality related rather than quality related: The Ozil-Sokratis-Mustafi-Kolasinac clique, Guendouzi, Aubameyang, AMN. That's not to say there weren't some clear quality deficiencies, but there is also a pattern there.

Which quality deficient players are you referring to? Laca, Eddie and Elneny are three of them I guess but they're all being let go on a free as things stand. Beyond that you've got a couple of back ups and maybe Xhaka.

Luiz, Willian, Mari, Bellerin, Willock, Chambers have all been binned off too. Together with the others the only real pattern I see is a group of players who are unlikely to play a big part in any successful future.

I'm saying some of the players that I listed were also quality deficient as well as being pricks. Being "An Arteta Man" seems to be what is keeping Xhaka here. Luiz, Willian and Bellerin all wanted out. That wasn't Arteta being ruthless.

And this is my point: with Xhaka he has not been ruthless. He has some sort of soft spot more, and it has cost us time and time again.

RocktheCasbah wrote:

And are you seriously suggesting the German clique was one worth persevering with? Sokratis was the only decent professional out of the four and still not really good enough. Ozil was finished at Arsenal long before Arteta ever arrived and, still, Arteta tried to get a tune out of him. Look at what's happened at Fenerbahce, listen to what Nacho Monreal - lest we forget, a teammate of Ozil's - had to say about the geezer.

Guendouzi made his bed. Ainsley, I love Ainsley but look at the quality he has and then look at Saka and Smith Rowe, they are leagues ahead of him. Look at what's happening to him at Roma.

Do you think Arteta has got rid of these people only because they're difficult to manage, or ultimately because the quality they provide the group is not worth the problems that come with them?

 No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm glad they're gone. I would like the same ruthlessness with Xhaka.

Shady, you doing an Anzac today?

You know I could have been a lot more succinct. Arteta shares a lot of the personality traits that Xhaka has been criticised for. Fuck them both.

flobaba wrote:

I knew when he didn’t take the captains band the other day it wasn’t just a matter of Nketiah making a mistake trying to give it to the wrong person, it was/is personal with him.

No one really believed that though did they? Maybe gobshites on twitter but no one on here is that stupid.

Shady wrote:

RocktheCasbah wrote:

Arteta literally won the FA Cup after 7 months in charge, beating City and Chelsea at Wembley, but okay.

Di Matteo won the Champions League with Chelsea and then proved to be not good enough. So what?

So, it's not accurate to say - as you did - that Arteta has achieved "fuck all". That's all. 

On the point about management and clean slate, I understand that but as a manager do you not also help people reflect on their behaviours particularly if they are problematic.

The problem seems to be that hasn't happened and Xhaka still has the exact same mindset he's always had back to that event. So this problematic behaviour is still there evidenced by how he talks about it. So yes it was a past event but the underlying behaviour that created it still seems to be present and he's never been self aware enough to acknowledge his part in that.

Of course you do. We don't know, will never know what conversations Arteta has had with Xhaka - and that's as it should be. I'm sure they would have talked about what happened, they would have had to if Arteta was to persuade Xhaka to stay.

I agree that Xhaka seems pretty unrepentant about the whole affair, as he was his needless red card at City earlier this season and I'm not going to sit here and say that he doesn't drive me mad. Anyone who's ever listened to the podcast I do with Daily Cannon would know that is faaaaaaaaaar from being the case. But, equally, I think if you listen to the other things he has to say about the game and his commitment to this club in general, it's not that difficult to understand why Arteta values him.

Bottom line: Of course, if Arsenal want to progress next season, his position is the second spot in the team I'd be looking to upgrade - once we've sorted out a new centre forward.

Qwiss! wrote:

flobaba wrote:

I knew when he didn’t take the captains band the other day it wasn’t just a matter of Nketiah making a mistake trying to give it to the wrong person, it was/is personal with him.

No one really believed that though did they? Maybe gobshites on twitter but no one on here is that stupid.

There are more than a couple here that really believed those excuses.

Kurt Eisner wrote:

RocktheCasbah wrote:

And are you seriously suggesting the German clique was one worth persevering with? Sokratis was the only decent professional out of the four and still not really good enough. Ozil was finished at Arsenal long before Arteta ever arrived and, still, Arteta tried to get a tune out of him. Look at what's happened at Fenerbahce, listen to what Nacho Monreal - lest we forget, a teammate of Ozil's - had to say about the geezer.

Guendouzi made his bed. Ainsley, I love Ainsley but look at the quality he has and then look at Saka and Smith Rowe, they are leagues ahead of him. Look at what's happening to him at Roma.

Do you think Arteta has got rid of these people only because they're difficult to manage, or ultimately because the quality they provide the group is not worth the problems that come with them?

Özil's a twat, Mustafi and Kola are shit, so no arguments there. They needed to go.

Guendouzi on the other hand is still a kid and a very talented one at that. He's a hothead, but I disagree that he made his bed, he comes with a few problems and it's the manager's job to try and solve that, not shame him publicly for going after an absolute prick and banish him. Him, AMN and Auba also play in positions where we desperately need quality, or a quality backup in the case of AMN, and he definitely has the potential to be at least that. That should figure into the decision making, because at the end of the day the product on the pitch is what's most important, not Arteta's non-negotiables. And since we didn't replace any of those three, it sure seems like he put the latter first.

Other than Saliba's treatment which is so mindboggling, Guendouzi defending his teammate only to be banished is just fucking stupid. He is the kind of character that dies for the team and loyal to his teammates as shown at Marseille as well being their spiritual leader at just 22, to publicly shame him for that? Such an inept management.

Really wish we'd get another look at Guendouzi here. So ridiculous to banish that amount of raw talent and personality.

Clrnc wrote:

Other than Saliba's treatment which is so mindboggling, Guendouzi defending his teammate only to be banished is just fucking stupid. He is the kind of character that dies for the team and loyal to his teammates as shown at Marseille as well being their spiritual leader at just 22, to publicly shame him for that? Such an inept management.

Except I don't think he really was at the time of the incident at the end of the game.  

IMO he and Maupay had been giving each other a serve all game and Maupay let him know who had the better of it & Guendouzi reacted.  It is possible that there was an exchange about the Leno incident that may have triggered Guendouzi's physical response at that time, but I do not think of it as defending his team mate as being the primary motivation, as opposed to being the excuse needed to choke the little shit.

IMO if you are genuinely defending your team mate you primarily do so at the time of the incident and I remember being pissed off that no one really did get in the face of either Maupay or the ref or linesman to give them a serve and tell them the facts of life.  IIRC the biggest reaction came from Leno as he was being taken off on the stretcher.
As for reacting after the game if that is your intent you wait until you are out of sight of the cameras etc and then you make it count.

Supposedly the reason he was sent on loan was that he subsequently refused to accept any wrongdoing and would not apologise to anyone, which for me is exactly the same behaviour and denial we see from Xhaka in regards to the CPalace incident.

EDIT - The other thing being IIRC he had similar issues with the management and coaches at both Hertha and when he initially went to OM?

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert wrote:

Really wish we'd get another look at Guendouzi here. So ridiculous to banish that amount of raw talent and personality.

Not going to happen whilst Arteta is still at the club.

Big Willie wrote:

Shady, you doing an Anzac today?

:saint:  ;D

Guendouzi not being here is far less of a problem than Xhaka actually being here. Guendouzis come and go, not gonna get hung up on them, but Xhakas are much bigger problems.

Plenty of other good midfielders out there, should've gone and got one last summer.

Clrnc wrote:

And he is also so affected by social media comments. This guy will never be a good footballer this way. Mentally unstable.

You couldn't make it up. Xhaka, who has achieved more in his profession than most people could even dream about, who has captained not only one of the biggest clubs in the world but also his country and has provided generational wealth for his family calls out our unhinged fanbase for what it is, and what does Clarence from the internet get out of it? That he'll never be a "good footballer" because he doesn't like hearing that his wife is a whore after he's picked up another red card. Give me strength lol. 

The guy literally said that fans don't understand players because all they see is 90 minutes once or twice a week, and here you are going one step further and deciding who he is based on a 24 minute interview (i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you even watched it).   

I thought you were judging Pepe based on 10 minutes once a month

You know the argument's getting tired when you start mentioning the generational wealth a player has provided to his family. Couldn't make it up oof let's go champ.