Arsenal — Mid Table Realism: Page 20 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Arsenal — Mid Table Realism

Big Willie

jones wrote:
Anzac wrote:
I don't see us turning things around whilst this rotten player core remains in place, regardless of who the manager is or isn't.

This same squad, arguably a bit weaker even got 70 points and an EL final not even two years ago and that was considered a failure. The rotten players aren't the issue here.

Exactly. I don't understand the whole lack of quality argument that we keep getting. Even if you allow for a lack of quality preventing us from getting CL football, there is no way we can possibly be expected to be out of Europa positions completely let alone in 15th. We are performing far below what can be reasonably expected, and on top of that Arteta doesn't seem to recognise the reasons for this and seems to be doubling down.

Those %s he ran down seem like someone who is either oblivious to what's going on or just in denial, but either way it's sounding a lot like Rafa with his fachts from back in the day.

Qwiss

jones wrote:
Anzac wrote:
I don't see us turning things around whilst this rotten player core remains in place, regardless of who the manager is or isn't.

This same squad, arguably a bit weaker even got 70 points and an EL final not even two years ago and that was considered a failure. The rotten players aren't the issue here.

Exactly. Thats this squads level. A great manager pushes them into the top 4, a bad manager finished 7-8th, baseline is 5-6th. What we have now is a complete and utter collapse.

deardevil

2018-2019 squad
Cech, Illiev, Leno, Bellerin, Holding, Jenkinson, Pleg, Kola, Kos, Licht, Mav, Medley, Mustafi, Tutu, Monreal, Papa, Saka, Elneny, Gilmour, Guendouzi, AMN, Mkhi, Ozil, Ramsey, Torreira, Willock, Xhaka, Aubameyang, Iwobi, Jules, Laca, Nketiah, Welbeck

2020-2021 squad
Hein, Leno, Macey, Runarsson, Soares, Chambers, Luiz, Gabriel, Bellerin, Holding, Kola, Mustafi, Mari, Papa, Saliba, Tierney, Azeez, Cottrell, Ceballos, Elneny, AMN, Ozil, Partey, Saka, Rowe, Willock, Xhaka, Auba, Balogun, Martinelli, Laca, Nelson, Nketiah, Pepe, Willian

I count 18 departures and 19 arrivals.

Qwiss

Yeah losing Gilmour was a real blow.

Clrnc

😆

Claudius

Qwiss! wrote:
Yeah losing Gilmour was a real blow.

Losing Mavropanos is the blow that finished us

deardevil

Qwiss! wrote:
Yeah losing Gilmour was a real blow.

Team that played against Brighton 2019
Leno, Lichtsteiner, Sokratis, Mustafi, Monreal, Torreira, Xhaka, Mkhitaryan, Ozil, Aubameyang, Lacazette

Team that played against Man Utd 2020
Leno, Holding, Gabriel, Tierney, Bellerin, Thomas, Elneny, Saka, Willian, Lacazette, Aubameyang

I count 8 changes.

How about the lineup against Everton 2020? There were 10 changes from the team against Brighton when Xhaka fucked us over.

You can compare countless games from the team that lost out on top four to the team we have today. It's not the same squad, nor is it the same team.

Clrnc

Exactly. We have taken the same squad, upgraded it and gotten worse.

Qwiss

deardevil wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
Yeah losing Gilmour was a real blow.

Team that played against Brighton 2019
Leno, Lichtsteiner, Sokratis, Mustafi, Monreal, Torreira, Xhaka, Mkhitaryan, Ozil, Aubameyang, Lacazette

Team that played against Man Utd 2020
Leno, Holding, Gabriel, Tierney, Bellerin, Thomas, Elneny, Saka, Willian, Lacazette, Aubameyang

I count 8 changes.

How about the lineup against Everton 2020? There were 10 changes from the team against Brighton when Xhaka fucked us over.

You can compare countless games from the team that lost out on top four to the team we have today. It's not the same squad, nor is it the same team.

😆 All you've proven is Arteta has a better squad.

deardevil

That's certainly up for debate.

Even if you were just comparing the two lineups I posted. The defence has improved but the attack has weakened.

What do the stats show? We concede fewer goals, and we also score fewer goals.

QuincyAbeyie

deardevil wrote:
That's certainly up for debate.

Even if you were just comparing the two lineups I posted. The defence has improved but the attack has weakened.

What do the stats show? We concede fewer goals, and we also score fewer goals.

The changes from the attack of your first line-up are these:

One was given away because he wasn't good enough
One was left out of the PL squad because he wasn't good enough
One of them is still here, but was benched because he's not good enough

Claudius

The worse attack is fair. But some of that is self inflicted. We miss Iwobi and Mkhitaryan’s kinking ability. But when Ozil played, our team had much better retention and creativity stats under Arteta. So we would probably be better with the 5-5 offense including Ozil (but forget him). So we have definitely hurt ourselves offensively.

Clrnc

After covid when we are scoring goals or even at the start of the season, nobody is saying we got a worse attack. Now we are in poor form and Mkhi is firing on all cylinders its easy to say we have a worse attack but its not that clear.

What is clear is the entire team is improved no matter how you see that

Anzac

jones wrote:
Anzac wrote:
I don't see us turning things around whilst this rotten player core remains in place, regardless of who the manager is or isn't.

This same squad, arguably a bit weaker even got 70 points and an EL final not even two years ago and that was considered a failure. The rotten players aren't the issue here.

3 failed managers including a club legend suggests otherwise, particularly if you recognise that this did not happen overnight.

I'd suggest that perhaps AW was the cork in the bottle that prevented this happening sooner, and his removal has allowed it to accelerate beyond the capabilities of subsequent managers 'new bounce' whilst this core of players remain.

That is not to say that any of the last 3 managers should have been retained, as IMO the club have brought this upon themselves as a result of a decade of poor decision making that does not appear to have been resolved as yet.

Qwiss

deardevil wrote:
That's certainly up for debate.

Even if you were just comparing the two lineups I posted. The defence has improved but the attack has weakened.

What do the stats show? We concede fewer goals, and we also score fewer goals.

How has the attack weakened? You have Mhki out and Willian in plus the emergence of Saka. Do you think we miss Mhki that much? Are you Speedy in disguise?

Anzac

Claudius wrote:
The worse attack is fair. But some of that is self inflicted. We miss Iwobi and Mkhitaryan’s kinking ability. But when Ozil played, our team had much better retention and creativity stats under Arteta. So we would probably be better with the 5-5 offense including Ozil (but forget him). So we have definitely hurt ourselves offensively.

Agreed re the ball retention capability but not sure we were any more creative effectively, and less so with Arteta's preferred requirements for the roles.

Again in hindsight Arteta's strict adherence to his system is too inflexible to get the best from this collection of players, and more so because at the end of the day this collection has never proven to be an effective squad or team suited to any particular style of play - there are too many deficiencies in any/all areas of the pitch.

Qwiss

Anzac wrote:
3 failed managers including a club legend suggests otherwise

Not all failures are equal.

Anzac

Qwiss! wrote:
deardevil wrote:
That's certainly up for debate.

Even if you were just comparing the two lineups I posted. The defence has improved but the attack has weakened.

What do the stats show? We concede fewer goals, and we also score fewer goals.

How has the attack weakened? You have Mhki out and Willian in plus the emergence of Saka. Do you think we miss Mhki that much? Are you Speedy in disguise?

You don't do yourself any favours.

Anzac

Qwiss! wrote:
Anzac wrote:
3 failed managers including a club legend suggests otherwise

Not all failures are equal.

But are all still failures none the less, and with the same common denominator.

Qwiss

Anzac wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
How has the attack weakened? You have Mhki out and Willian in plus the emergence of Saka. Do you think we miss Mhki that much? Are you Speedy in disguise?

You don't do yourself any favours.

Get your mind out of the gutter. 😆

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