Arsenal — Mid Table Realism: Page 21 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Arsenal — Mid Table Realism

Qwiss

Anzac wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
Not all failures are equal.

But are all still failures none the less, and with the same common denominator.

Well that just a stupidly reductive way to look at it. It the common denominator is the same then why did Emery and Wenger both finish in the Europa places and Arteta is closer to relegation than those spots?

deardevil

Creating - I think we miss Ramsey, Ozil, Iwobi and Mkhitaryan. Players who can keep the ball in the final third and create chances for their teammates. Saka, Ceballos, Pepe, Nelson and Willian are poorer replacements. Saka is an upgrade, the rest are all poorer than the man they replaced.

Scoring - Aubameyang and Lacazette are a year or two older now and both look past their peak. You can compare Welbeck to Nketiah for all that comparison is worth.

Anzac

Qwiss! wrote:
Anzac wrote:
But are all still failures none the less, and with the same common denominator.

Well that just a stupidly reductive way to look at it. It the common denominator is the same then why did Emery and Wenger both finish in the Europa places and Arteta is closer to relegation than those spots?

Really? At the end of the day it is still failure by all 3 = it's called ongoing decline.

The squad under all 3 has steadily declined in terms of technical ability and capability, to the point the current squad is the worst of the lot, and particularly in the midfield options and transitional capability.

However the squad is not the subject here, but rather the same core of players that have been part of each of those squads, and generally started as being starting players from AW's time.

The idea of degrees of failure being 'better' than others is to ignore the simple fact they still failed to achieve/deliver the required outcomes/expectations, despite their greater experience and resources.

QuincyAbeyie

Anzac wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
Well that just a stupidly reductive way to look at it. It the common denominator is the same then why did Emery and Wenger both finish in the Europa places and Arteta is closer to relegation than those spots?

Really? At the end of the day it is still failure by all 3 = it's called ongoing decline.

It's way too simplistic. If we hire Pulis, me and Sherwood we will also fail and the players will be the common denominator.

Claudius

deardevil wrote:
Creating - I think we miss Ramsey, Ozil, Iwobi and Mkhitaryan. Players who can keep the ball in the final third and create chances for their teammates. Saka, Ceballos, Pepe, Nelson and Willian are poorer replacements. Saka is an upgrade, the rest are all poorer than the man they replaced.

Scoring - Aubameyang and Lacazette are a year or two older now and both look past their peak. You can compare Welbeck to Nketiah for all that comparison is worth.

I forgot that under Emery we had Ramsey and we just sat him cos of the contract dispute. While we also sat Ozil for whatever reason.
This team is full of garbage.

I do sympathize with Arteta. He’s had to come in and encounter so much rubbish here. It is so hard to work on building a new culture while dealing with incumbents. They will do whatever they can to undermine you. I have a friend who’s just joined a new company where they’re trying to hire new execs and remove close to a third of incumbents. The amount of pushback is incredible but it needs to change big time if it is ever to succeed. Arteta is in the same position. He knows and the. It’s know that people have to leave. And he had voiced it too. Which is fair given that it is clear we need differentiated skills to achieve our ambition. Under these circumstances, we need to act very quickly to overhaul the team.

The tough thing for Arteta is that Wenger and Sanllehi left him with a dozen shits. This is where Kroenke needs to invest a “turnaround fund” to buyout players and buy new recruits. Waiting for Arteta to prove himself or just letting business run normally will just undermine him and Edu further. And same would apply to any new manager. They will be met with resistance from outdated incumbents. I really feel for Arteta. This is a shit job. We need to do what Chelsea have done. Rapid injection of new talent, dump the likes of Luiz. Move on.

Anzac

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Anzac wrote:
Really? At the end of the day it is still failure by all 3 = it's called ongoing decline.

It's way too simplistic. If we hire Pulis, me and Sherwood we will also fail and the players will be the common denominator.

It may be simplistic in terms of problem solving, but not in terms of perspective or priorities.
I'm not saying the managers are not a factor, but IMO the first area of concern should be to identify any common denominators from all 3 managerial tenures.

Gazza M

i wonder if these 25% relegation pay cut stories might get a few of them to buck their ideas up. when you've quit on the team and are operating based on self-preservation, a haircut of that magnitude might provide some impetus ala when players perform out of their skin during contract negotations

Rohit

One of the reasons of the fanbase wanting Wenger to go was that he was not getting the best out of the players he had at his disposal. There was a case too. In his last season we won 15 games at home, drew 2 and lost 2, scored 54. We had a title winning record at home but away from home was another story. There was the kind of disparity that will rarely be seen for a top club and it had to be down to the manager. We kept most of Wenger's final squad and improved upon the points total but it wasn't enough. We have kept the core of the squad, players mostly in their prime, have spent money on additions and from believing that the squad was better than challenging for top 4 have conceded that we are only as good as we are showing on the pitch now. Amazing.

Qwiss

Anzac wrote:
The squad under all 3 has steadily declined in terms of technical ability and capability, to the point the current squad is the worst of the lot, and particularly in the midfield options and transitional capability.

The decline hasn't been steady though, there was an uptick in Emerys first season. Which is evidence that a manager can improve the team. This idea that the manager has no real impact is crazy.

The idea of degrees of failure being 'better' than others is to ignore the simple fact they still failed to achieve/deliver the required outcomes/expectations, despite their greater experience and resources.

This is semantic nonsense, Arteta is doing far worse than the other 2 and they lost their jobs for the level they had the team at .

And how did they have greater resources? You'd think we were comparing the Invincibles to the current squad rather than the team 2 years ago that Emery finished 5th with.

Claudius

Arteta has the greatest resources. He's been buying and not selling players. He's got players sitting at home or out on loan all over Europe. And he is still giving us this stiff football. He is done.

goon

You act like he chose not to sell them, those guys are as much of a 'resource' as the crap stuck on the bottom of your trainers.

You can want Arteta gone for what he's managed to extract from these players, but there's no way you can build a narrative that he's had anything close to an ideal environment to work in, certainly nothing close to the two full ordinary summer transfer windows that Emery had. The only player Arteta actually signed for real money and got to use is Gabriel.

Qwiss

Burnwinter wrote:
I predict we'll see a significant turnaround in results in the second half with or without Arteta moving on. We won't be good at all but we'll go on a couple of mini-runs, pick up thirty points, which will mean doing twice as well as we've done to date.

Even with that much optimism it's less than a European place and deserves the sack.

Qwiss

goon wrote:
You act like he chose not to sell them, those guys are as much of a 'resource' as the crap stuck on the bottom of your trainers.

You can want Arteta gone for what he's managed to extract from these players, but there's no way you can build a narrative that he's had anything close to an ideal environment to work in, certainly nothing close to the two full ordinary summer transfer windows that Emery had. The only player Arteta actually signed for real money and got to use is Gabriel.

You can't dismiss the Willian transfer. It has a big wage and a long contract, that's real money too. Worse still he's keeping others out of the team.

deardevil

Might have to change the title of this thread. I thought we were en route to the doldrums a long time ago and I had made peace with that. I don't have any faith that we will win the league in the next 10 years, as too many clubs with greater ambition have surpassed us including Spurs. So I have emotionally detached and sleep well at night. But when I think about how we ended up with Runarsson in goal. A third choice ICELANDIC goalkeeper. A guy who couldn't even start for Dijon who finished 16th in Ligue 1. A guy who was recommended by some two-bit coach and the influence he had to persuade the stakeholders. The paltry budget that was allocated to buying said keeper. The type of deals we are now making signing peoples fucking mates. This feels like a burning ship in the Atlantic and I'm getting serious QPR/Leeds vibes.

Claudius

deardevil wrote:
Might have to change the title of this thread. I thought we were en route to the doldrums a long time ago and I had made peace with that. I don't have any faith that we will win the league in the next 10 years, as too many clubs with greater ambition have surpassed us including Spurs. So I have emotionally detached and sleep well at night. But when I think about how we ended up with Runarsson in goal. A third choice ICELANDIC goalkeeper. A guy who couldn't even start for Dijon who finished 16th in Ligue 1. A guy who was recommended by some two-bit coach and the influence he had to persuade the stakeholders. The paltry budget that was allocated to buying said keeper. The type of deals we are now making signing peoples fucking mates. This feels like a burning ship in the Atlantic and I'm getting serious QPR/Leeds vibes.

That sums it all up. Club is broken. We can’t even benchmark ourselves with Liverpool. Southampton and Villa wouldn’t do the crap we do.

swider

deardevil wrote:
Might have to change the title of this thread. I thought we were en route to the doldrums a long time ago and I had made peace with that. I don't have any faith that we will win the league in the next 10 years, as too many clubs with greater ambition have surpassed us including Spurs. So I have emotionally detached and sleep well at night. But when I think about how we ended up with Runarsson in goal. A third choice ICELANDIC goalkeeper. A guy who couldn't even start for Dijon who finished 16th in Ligue 1. A guy who was recommended by some two-bit coach and the influence he had to persuade the stakeholders. The paltry budget that was allocated to buying said keeper. The type of deals we are now making signing peoples fucking mates. This feels like a burning ship in the Atlantic and I'm getting serious QPR/Leeds vibes.

I don't think you'll find one person here who disagrees with you mate.

Klaus

Who helped broker the deal for Runarsson/represented him? There has to be some kind of ratfucking involved there too. We could probably have gotten a number of PL second choice keepers for a few measly million. Imagine what happens now (or don't, if you want to sleep a little more soundly) if Leno gets injured.

swider

Klaus wrote:
Who helped broker the deal for Runarsson/represented him? There has to be some kind of ratfucking involved there too. We could probably have gotten a number of PL second choice keepers for a few measly million. Imagine what happens now (or don't, if you want to sleep a little more soundly) if Leno gets injured.

I've said it in the match thread, we are automatically in relegation fight. The guy is shocking.

Claudius

Klaus wrote:
Who helped broker the deal for Runarsson/represented him? There has to be some kind of ratfucking involved there too. We could probably have gotten a number of PL second choice keepers for a few measly million. Imagine what happens now (or don't, if you want to sleep a little more soundly) if Leno gets injured.

Mahrez’s free kick went through him. Like he was fluid. We don’t just accept simple defeats. We engineer humiliations.

Anzac

Qwiss! wrote:
Anzac wrote:
The squad under all 3 has steadily declined in terms of technical ability and capability, to the point the current squad is the worst of the lot, and particularly in the midfield options and transitional capability.

The decline hasn't been steady though, there was an uptick in Emerys first season. Which is evidence that a manager can improve the team. This idea that the manager has no real impact is crazy.

The idea of degrees of failure being 'better' than others is to ignore the simple fact they still failed to achieve/deliver the required outcomes/expectations, despite their greater experience and resources.

This is semantic nonsense, Arteta is doing far worse than the other 2 and they lost their jobs for the level they had the team at .

And how did they have greater resources? You'd think we were comparing the Invincibles to the current squad rather than the team 2 years ago that Emery finished 5th with.

There was also an uptick in Arteta's 1st part season that resulted in a Cup win & silverware Emery didn't achieve despite his UEL Final.

Emery's squad had better players and depth than the current squad = Wilshere, Mkhi, Iwobi, Rambo would all make a massive difference to the current midfield options.

I'm not saying the manager doesn't have an impact, nor that Arteta should not be sacked.

What I am saying is that he is yet another 'victim' of our rotten player core that will likely see off their 3rd permanent manager and an interim manager in the last 4 seasons, and any replacement will face the same issue until the said core is removed from the club by whatever means. IMO this single issue continues to undermine anything attempted by any of the managers, and I find it ridiculous to think a rookie can achieve something a managerial legend was unable to, regardless if the rookie is also shooting himself in the foot as a result of his inexperience.

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