• The Arsenal

  • Official: Mikel Arteta is the new Arsenal manager.

Yea. Though it would be more than just Arteta's failure.

Coombs wrote:

Yea. Though it would be more than just Arteta's failure.

Sure. But with the players we have the club should demand that the coach achieves at least top6. Anything less is a failure and, save a first season (adaptation), should result in sacking the coach (unless the team shows strong signs of improvement).

Arsenal is a big club of the best league in the world. The club needs to behave like one.

Why should the club demand top 6? They're the ones who've fucked up the team, not the coach. The club can start making demands when they clear up their mess and put a proper strategy in place. Then we can talk about league position.

Qwiss! wrote:
Sicario wrote:

How about potentially being only 3 points behind Chelsea in early Jan who were apparently title contenders as recent as earlier this month?

You can re-frame this argument either way. Did we over achieve with Mikel last season by winning the fa cup?

No. Lots of midtable and lower teams win the cup. Its the nature of the competition. Emery was sacked when we were 8th in the table. We finished the season 8th but we allow for that because Arteta needed time to get to know the team and get them playing well together. That time has passed though and now we are 13th. Finishing 8th again this season would be a failure by any reasonable level of expectation.

Agree that it can be perceived as not meeting expectations but if you acknowledge the mess this club is in (eg. Inbalanced squad, unclear and inexperienced club operations, dressing room cliques etc.) you can also accept there will be major bumps along the way that may divert our trajectory. Emery was given two years to get us back into the CL and ended up making the situation worse so my personal expectations are that Arteta will take at least three years (but probably a bit longer) to get us to that level. I hope we are turning a corner now and assuming we make a marked improvement over the rest of the season then I'll be okay with wherever we finish. 

Ultimately, we need to be building for the long-term, which i do still believe its Arteta's vision and I'd have that over bringing in a new manager just so that we can finish 7th this season. 

Coombs wrote:

Why should the club demand top 6? They're the ones who've fucked up the team, not the coach. The club can start making demands when they clear up their mess and put a proper strategy in place. Then we can talk about league position.

This - expecting a rookie Head Coach / Manager and TD to sort the club out without any experienced support is an abdication of the club's responsibilities.
We've already been don this line with a legendary manager, that has set us on this course over the last 5-10 years.

If Arteta was livid re the leaks of the bust up between Luiz and Ceballos, he'll be less than impressed with this after his public comments about the former.
Essentially it 'looks' like an act of direct defiance to leak this to the media.
I do wonder if the leak is not one of the de-registered players = what more can Arteta do to them?

Don Pacifico wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:

No. Lots of midtable and lower teams win the cup. Its the nature of the competition. Emery was sacked when we were 8th in the table. We finished the season 8th but we allow for that because Arteta needed time to get to know the team and get them playing well together. That time has passed though and now we are 13th. Finishing 8th again this season would be a failure by any reasonable level of expectation.

Agree that it can be perceived as not meeting expectations but if you acknowledge the mess this club is in (eg. Inbalanced squad, unclear and inexperienced club operations, dressing room cliques etc.) you can also accept there will be major bumps along the way that may divert our trajectory. Emery was given two years to get us back into the CL and ended up making the situation worse so my personal expectations are that Arteta will take at least three years (but probably a bit longer) to get us to that level. I hope we are turning a corner now and assuming we make a marked improvement over the rest of the season then I'll be okay with wherever we finish. 

Ultimately, we need to be building for the long-term, which i do still believe its Arteta's vision and I'd have that over bringing in a new manager just so that we can finish 7th this season. 

I think the 'real' journey begins once we purge this squad, not just those already leaving next summer, but also those who are no longer 'fit for purpose', including the likes of Xhaka and at least one of Lacazette / PEA.

Anzac wrote:

If Arteta was livid re the leaks of the bust up between Luiz and Ceballos, he'll be less than impressed with this after his public comments about the former.
Essentially it 'looks' like an act of direct defiance to leak this to the media.
I do wonder if the leak is not one of the de-registered players = what more can Arteta do to them?

I agree. That's also probably why Edu is desperate to shift them asap and rightfully so.

Don't really need to guess, doesn't matter who released it. It's common knowledge Arteta has struggled to keep the team together and in the same direction. Not releasing those jokers due to whatever reasons in the summer will be a hard lesson learned for him and the management team above.

Hopefully things will improve a lot once all these pests are gone

I don't think it's up to Arteta whether to release players. He clearly doesn't want Ozil in the squad for example.

Gazza M wrote:
Jed wrote:

Let me take a wild guess - Ozil.

in terms of potential malcontents, the possibilities are in double figures. Alan davies made a good point that its damaging to have these guys still part of training m, probably half assing it to avoid injury. it has an effect on team morale

Need to listen to that.
But he is right. You can’t keep sustaining this large squad. Too many players each week are running around without a chance of playing. They are miserable and disinterested. You need a small corps of players who know that they are part of the manager’s plans and their efforts may be rewarded. This argument folks keep making about the benefit of having incredible depth is actually detrimental in both sporting and economic terms

Who is making that argument?

Gazza M wrote:
Jed wrote:

Let me take a wild guess - Ozil.

in terms of potential malcontents, the possibilities are in double figures. Alan davies made a good point that its damaging to have these guys still part of training m, probably half assing it to avoid injury. it has an effect on team morale

You just have  to think of how shit we did each season a big player was pushing for a move. Fans would endlessly shit themselves and we'd usually have a better season after they left. For example we got 68 points in Henry's final season at 83 the year after he left.

banduan wrote:

I don't think it's up to Arteta whether to release players. He clearly doesn't want Ozil in the squad for example.

Agreed - shifting the unwanted falls back to Edu, just as does getting the required/desired players in.

banduan wrote:

I don't think it's up to Arteta whether to release players. He clearly doesn't want Ozil in the squad for example.

Of course. Edu and co really fucked up massively not securing a deal for Kola or Sokratis for example. Both are leaving ASAP now, half a year late.

Ozil is different, he wants to intentionally stay here to receive all his salary without playing

Clrnc wrote:
banduan wrote:

I don't think it's up to Arteta whether to release players. He clearly doesn't want Ozil in the squad for example.

Of course. Edu and co really fucked up massively not securing a deal for Kola or Sokratis for example. Both are leaving ASAP now, half a year late.

Ozil is different, he wants to intentionally stay here to receive all his salary without playing

He wants to earn all of his bonuses.
Which he won’t earn because he won’t play. But we can’t sit across the table from him and say we are going to give him a contract payout without his bonuses, because that would imply we were planning on defaulting on his contract, thus acting in bad faith.
So we should’ve offered to pay out his contract with a fair amount of his bonuses, ie equivalent to what he would’ve earned in a regular season based on his prior performances. And sent him off.

To have just the Ozil situation would be unfortunate. But to have had Ramsey, and now Saliba and all these other expiring contracts exhibits a club that is wholly incompetent at player contract management

Claudius wrote:
Clrnc wrote:

Of course. Edu and co really fucked up massively not securing a deal for Kola or Sokratis for example. Both are leaving ASAP now, half a year late.

Ozil is different, he wants to intentionally stay here to receive all his salary without playing

He wants to earn all of his bonuses.
Which he won’t earn because he won’t play. But we can’t sit across the table from him and say we are going to give him a contract payout without his bonuses, because that would imply we were planning on defaulting on his contract, thus acting in bad faith.
So we should’ve offered to pay out his contract with a fair amount of his bonuses, ie equivalent to what he would’ve earned in a regular season based on his prior performances. And sent him off.

To have just the Ozil situation would be unfortunate. But to have had Ramsey, and now Saliba and all these other expiring contracts exhibits a club that is wholly incompetent at player contract management

Doesn't that mean we're only doing the logical thing? If it costs more to pay him out than let him sit then let him sit. It should cost less if anything since he'd get a new salary somewhere else so he'd still get more than he does now.