Premier League 19/20: Page 87 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Premier League 19/20

jones

Mane eg is a more "believable" development curve, with Salah it was more akin to Ramsey in 13/14

Mirth

jones wrote:
As for our head start vs Liverpool - FSG own them since 2010. They went from Hodgson to Dalglish, Brentan and finally Klopp to finally get some sort of return on the hundreds of millions they've sunk into a bunch of squads. I'll appreciate their ambition and that they weren't disheartened by years of failure but they're no miracle workers or even exceptional recruiters by any means.

I think we're going to have to qualify some of the terms. I don't think Liverpool are miracle workers and nor does anyone else on this forum.

But throwing vast sums of money, chopping and changing managers and signing a few duds is par for the course for most clubs these days - mainly in England but even Barcelona and Madrid have questionable recruitment policies at the moment. Liverpool have done those three things more efficiently than their peers and we'd have to do exactly the same thing to win the Champions League. Yes, there is an element of trial and error or sheer dumb luck but we're not going to hit that wave by sitting on our hands season after season.

Rohit

jones wrote:
You expected him to smash the PL season record of Henry, Suarez, RVP etc? Fair dues to you then Klaus I didn't

As for our head start vs Liverpool - FSG own them since 2010. They went from Hodgson to Dalglish, Brentan and finally Klopp to finally get some sort of return on the hundreds of millions they've sunk into a bunch of squads. I'll appreciate their ambition and that they weren't disheartened by years of failure but they're no miracle workers or even exceptional recruiters by any means.

Thank you. It has all come together for them and they should get credit for it but it hasn't happened overnight without mistakes. They learned from theirs, it is to be seen if we will learn from ours. We have been better than Liverpool for the best part of Wenger's tenure. There is no reason why with the right moves we won't do the same. In Klopp's first season they finished 8th with 60 points. Their recruitment has been brilliant since then.

Claudius

Yeah. It's easy to say that Salah is a freak occurrence, but when they just keep nailing it with 7 or 8 players it shows that there is something special going on. Especially given their financial disadvantage versus their Mancunian neighbours.

What's a bit distressing is that the Kroenkes have not consistently delivered in any major American sports. So there is no reason to believe that they will do anything more than cash a cheque for the foreseeable future.

jones

Mirth wrote:
jones wrote:
As for our head start vs Liverpool - FSG own them since 2010. They went from Hodgson to Dalglish, Brentan and finally Klopp to finally get some sort of return on the hundreds of millions they've sunk into a bunch of squads. I'll appreciate their ambition and that they weren't disheartened by years of failure but they're no miracle workers or even exceptional recruiters by any means.

I think we're going to have to qualify some of the terms. I don't think Liverpool are miracle workers and nor does anyone else on this forum.

But throwing vast sums of money, chopping and changing managers and signing a few duds is par for the course for most clubs these days - mainly in England but even Barcelona and Madrid have questionable recruitment policies at the moment. Liverpool have done those three things more efficiently than their peers and we'd have to do exactly the same thing to win the Champions League. Yes, there is an element of trial and error or sheer dumb luck but we're not going to hit that wave by sitting on our hands season after season.

I think you're basically saying exactly what I said with just a different qualifier at the beginning. Other clubs have done worse, Liverpool have done better - but only since recently.

MuswellHillGooner

Claudius wrote:
Gazza M wrote:
So many things went right for them though. Klopp being on sabbatical when they sacked their coach. salah and mane developing into 2 of the best players in the world (very few would've called it 3 years ago). 2 borderline world class fullbacks emerging at little to no cost, contrasted with pep who scoured europe and spent 100m+ to fix those positions. The coutinho windfall leading to VVD/fabinho. Narrowly finishing fourth in klopps first full season

In many respects it was the perfect storm

Now what you can't debate is that they didn't squander any good fortune, and instead siezed their opportunity with both hands while others developed fetishes for self sabotage

We had a number of similar slices of fortune and openings that were squandered completely in the last 3-4 years. Its easy to forget we gazumped liverpool for alexis sanchez in 2014. That summer and the subsequent ones should've seen us slam the door on liverpool for at least 5 years, but we fucked up so badly that they were able to rebuild a better team while we flailed about with wenger out banners. I'm so appalled

I do not buy the luck argument, Gazza. You have to capitalise on opportunity. It's not like Klopp was fired and Liverpool immediately took him. There was a 6 month gap between him announcing he'd leave Dortmund and Liverpool taking him early the next season. The Kroenkes knew we were headed nowhere with Wenger. Someone who seizes opportunity would've relieved Wenger of his duties that summer and recruited Klopp.

And on the transfer luck. Again, I point to the fact that all our value is tied up in our frontline. There were murmurs around Lacazette. I would've shopped him and turned that money into someone like Zaha or Partey to achieve greater squad balance.

Luck is just a word Arsenal fans use to comfort themselves. Fenway Sports have exceptional foresight and execution.

I couldn't agree more and what made it maddening is we fans knew the only reason Wenger was still in the job was sentimental. I think even Gazidis knew this as he watched every game but Kroenke in America was happy with the annual Champions League cheque so the trigger wasn't pulled.

Clrnc

I agree Salah was a massive stroke of luck. I am a big fan of his back in his Basel days and can never predict his goal scoring record being behind Messi and Ronaldo in europe.

But you make your own luck. They have many failed transfers but cut their losses quickly and tried for another player. In the end as long as you show ambitions and keep trying you can never go wrong. So even if Pepe is a complete flop, we can sell him for 50m and get the next one in.

Claudius

I’m fuming at our plight versus Liverpool’s ascent. It goes back to Anzac’s oft-mentioned point about how we weren’t maximizing our cash flow between 2010 and 2015. We just didn’t stretch ourselves enough in those days and allowed ourselves to sink into the abyss of irrelevance. We are a lot better now, but there’s still a gap with elite traders.

Ray

I don't think it's luck, Klopp has a great record with developing young players, he deserves credit for Mane and Salah and I'm sure he's built his system to suit those two. He did it with Lewandowski, Kagawa, Auba etc too, he clearly has an eye for talent, and a type of player he looks for.

Claudius

Ray wrote:
I don't think it's luck, Klopp has a great record with developing young players, he deserves credit for Mane and Salah and I'm sure he's built his system to suit those two. He did it with Lewandowski, Kagawa, Auba etc too, he clearly has an eye for talent, and a type of player he looks for.

Part of the reason we can’t make decisive squad choices right now is that Emery has no defined style. If he knew that he was playing a 4231 or 343 for example, we would not have ended the summer with all of Lacazette, Aubameyang, Pepe and Ozil. Now he’s playing Ozil with a back 3 and excluding Pépé, sub-optimizing both players. Fucking mental. If you pulled this crap in a corporate, you’d be fired.

QuincyAbeyie

Well, he will be fired.

Clrnc

Talking about Klopp, Liverpool have now only lost 1 league match in their last 50 and that is the one where the ball was millimeters on the line against City. Every match other than that they have scored at least 2 goals as well. Insane run.

goon

That’s insane.

Bold Tone

Clrnc wrote:
Talking about Klopp, Liverpool have now only lost 1 league match in their last 50 and that is the one where the ball was millimeters on the line against City. Every match other than that they have scored at least 2 goals as well. Insane run.

:gape:

Rohit

That's crazy. They will end up qualifying as one of the best ever sides if they win the League as expected.

Ricky1985

Clrnc wrote:
Talking about Klopp, Liverpool have now only lost 1 league match in their last 50 and that is the one where the ball was millimeters on the line against City. Every match other than that they have scored at least 2 goals as well. Insane run.

Fake news. They drew 1-1 at Old Trafford just the other week. And snuck a 1-0 away at Sheffield United the week before that.

MuswellHillGooner

The scoring 2 goals bit is the least impressive part of that stat.
49 games out of 50 is the wow factor.

QuincyAbeyie

Scoring 2+ goals in 49 out of 50 matches would've been absolutely insane.

deardevil

There are few things worse than not being able to give credit where it's due. Wouldn't even be surprised if they went on to retain the CL.

deardevil

Claudius wrote:
Ray wrote:
I don't think it's luck, Klopp has a great record with developing young players, he deserves credit for Mane and Salah and I'm sure he's built his system to suit those two. He did it with Lewandowski, Kagawa, Auba etc too, he clearly has an eye for talent, and a type of player he looks for.

Part of the reason we can’t make decisive squad choices right now is that Emery has no defined style. If he knew that he was playing a 4231 or 343 for example, we would not have ended the summer with all of Lacazette, Aubameyang, Pepe and Ozil. Now he’s playing Ozil with a back 3 and excluding Pépé, sub-optimizing both players. Fucking mental. If you pulled this crap in a corporate, you’d be fired.

We made a massive mistake by spending 130 million on two CF's. It was a poor allocation of funds.

Liverpool bought their entire front three for around that. Hell, so did Man City.

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