jones wrote:

If Saliba isn't in Artetas plans by then Edu needs to sack him on the spot. There are far more doubts about Artetas ability as a coach than there are about Salibas talent.

Aye but we've nothing to gauge Salibas attitude on, he could be a dope like ben arfa ect.

According to Chris Wheatley, Saliba's crew have said there's no truth in the L'equipe reports re the loan extension and that he's going to return to Arsenal in the summer.

jones wrote:

If Saliba isn't in Artetas plans by then Edu needs to sack him on the spot. There are far more doubts about Artetas ability as a coach than there are about Salibas talent.

That's an odd way to make decisions. Arteta himself doesn't seem to doubt Saliba's talent, only his readiness, and perhaps his maturity.

If Saliba's thrown in with the WhatsApp'ing French boys who talk shit on the internet, its pretty stupid of him. Head down, work hard, prove your worth, and shut the fuck up I say. Don't talk to Guendouzi.

Arteta also clearly has a thing about CBs, yammering about what a complicated position it is and such. I'm willing to wait this one out, personally.

Coombs wrote:
jones wrote:

If Saliba isn't in Artetas plans by then Edu needs to sack him on the spot. There are far more doubts about Artetas ability as a coach than there are about Salibas talent.

If Saliba's thrown in with the WhatsApp'ing French boys who talk shit on the internet, its pretty stupid of him. Head down, work hard, prove your worth, and shut the fuck up I say. Don't talk to Guendouzi.

Really seems this way. He is obviously very unhappy at being frozen out and is complaining to his mates understandably. We need to manage this prodigious young defender well, when he grow older he might be more mature.

The bigger danger with the WhatsApp groups is how potential recruits view Arsenal. Say we wanted Adli, Soumaré or Camavinga, they’d probably hear quite quickly what a nightmare it’s been.

I hope we have clarity on the technical director role. Who between Arteta and Edu is responsible for overall team formation/ strategy, and identifying the corresponding players. Because if its Edu, Arteta needs to use the players he’s given. If it’s Arteta, then he has more leeway.

It'll be good to get a proper look at Saliba now. Last season was a proper mess with the foot injury and then the season being postponed in France justwhen he came back and started to work up a steam again. Hopefully he'll impress at Nice and then we can push a few centrebacks out the door this summmer.

The only ones I would be interested in keeping next season are Mari, Gabriel, Holding, Chambers and Saliba, and that's already a defender too many probably. I think it'll come down to whether we keep Holding or Chambers in the end. It's not really fair to Holding who's had a very good season so far, but for me the choice would be Chambers.

I think Holding is showing more than Chambers has at this point.

Chambers may have a better pass on him, and match Holding in other traits, but he is clearly lacking in pace and I don't think his positioning is good enough to overcome that. Rare to see Holding beaten for pace, he's done well on that.

Re comparisons with Forfana. It is one thing to play at Leicester where the fanbase is tiny and expectations are low, it's another thing to play for Arsenal. Forfana could play like crap 5 games in a row and no one would notice, much less care. It was the same with Sonyucu last season. He got so much praise, and he was pretty good in spells, but he was also rash as hell, he had games that I myself watched where he was on the edge of disaster all game and made mistakes galore. And yet what most rival fans see is the good performance when Leicester play a big side or a MotM performance in game against lesser opposition, so, too, the pundits and journalists. In fact, especially the pundits and journalists.

I'm not saying that Forfana or Sonyucu aren't good players or potentially good players, rather that Arteta might not be crazy for thinking that the centrebacks at a club like ours are hugely important players, especially given the state of the rest of the team, and that not relying on a kid that would get eaten alive if he cost us a game or two, hell, probably even just a goal or two, might actually be good for the team and the player in the long run.

It might even be the sort of sensible thinking and serious approach that we have lacked at the club for god knows how long.

If we have a CB as good as Fofana and don't put him in the EL group stage squad to protect him from fan criticism then yes I think Arteta is crazy. Our fan base is bigger than Leicester, but they're by far the better team and Fofana is good enough to play in it.

To be fair, I don't think Arsenal fans are necessarily crying out for him to start week in week out, I could even accept him being behind Luiz, but why has someone like Mustafi gotten mins and bench time over Saliba? He's pretty trash and will most likely be signing a pre-contract with someone if he doesn't leave in Jan.

Arteta himself has said that being 'involved' in the match day squad, even if it's as an unused sub, helps the players feel a part of things. It's a weird one, it almost feels like Arteta decided in the summer that Saliba wasn't ready to play a part this season and has rigidly stuck by that rather than throw the kid even a fragment of a bone.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

If we have a CB as good as Fofana and don't put him in the EL group stage squad to protect him from fan criticism then yes I think Arteta is crazy. Our fan base is bigger than Leicester, but they're by far the better team and Fofana is good enough to play in it.

It's certainly a very very strange suggestion. One of the strangest I have seen of someone guessing this saga. No manager would ever think this way. If youa re good enough you are old enough.

Fanbase and expectations in covid meant even lesser. There are no crowds, fans watches every match now due to staggered time slot. I certainly watched almost every match of Fofana this season, 1 or 2 games he was average, good to outstanding in the rest.

There's only 2 possible reasons why Saliba is deemed not even good enough to make the benches in any of the carabao cup and banished from a EL squad where kids normally play. One is he is in such a bad standard quality wise we have no choice, 2nd is he's banished for some reason.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

If we have a CB as good as Fofana and don't put him in the EL group stage squad to protect him from fan criticism then yes I think Arteta is crazy. Our fan base is bigger than Leicester, but they're by far the better team and Fofana is good enough to play in it.

It's nothing to do with the quality of the team. That was not mentioned, nor even implied, in my post.

Look at the hysteria that surrounds Arsenal. There are probably only 10 other clubs on the planet that compare. Perhaps fewer than that. Leicester might as well be Leyton Orient by comparison.

And who cares about the Europa? So Saliba didn't play in 6 games against opposition that our B, in fact, more like C, team beat handily in every game. It's annoying that we fans didn't get to watch the kid play, but if Arteta has decided he's not ready this season then he absolutely should play the more senior players he trusts more than Saliba to play in what he himself has described as a crucial and demanding position, i.e., not a position he sounds like he wants to start experimenting in.

Arteta was happy to wave Saliba away for 12 months, that's the reality. Not making that happen and then hanging around past the Europa squad deadline for a Championship loan that also never materialised is zero to do with Arteta. It's unfortunate for the player, and I'm sure he'll rightly be annoyed, but this is Arsenal, and it seems to me that Arteta is reminding everyone at the club what that actually means.

Games in the Europa league and Carabao cup is the way youth players prove themselves to get into the first team, prime example being ESR. Not playing him and deciding I’d rather play Mustafi, Luiz, Xhaka, Willian etc because they’re more experienced is the complete opposite of what Arsenal is about.

He made a mistake, and rather than admitting it, he is being stubborn and sending him out on loan. Serious question marks over his man management and adaptability to the situation.

Ricky1985 wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:

If we have a CB as good as Fofana and don't put him in the EL group stage squad to protect him from fan criticism then yes I think Arteta is crazy. Our fan base is bigger than Leicester, but they're by far the better team and Fofana is good enough to play in it.

It's nothing to do with the quality of the team. That was not mentioned, nor even implied, in my post.

Look at the hysteria that surrounds Arsenal. There are probably only 10 other clubs on the planet that compare. Perhaps fewer than that. Leicester might as well be Leyton Orient by comparison.

And who cares about the Europa? So Saliba didn't play in 6 games against opposition that our B, in fact, more like C, team beat handily in every game. It's annoying that we fans didn't get to watch the kid play, but if Arteta has decided he's not ready this season then he absolutely should play the more senior players he trusts more than Saliba to play in what he himself has described as a crucial and demanding position, i.e., not a position he sounds like he wants to start experimenting in.

Arteta was happy to wave Saliba away for 12 months, that's the reality. Not making that happen and then hanging around past the Europa squad deadline for a Championship loan that also never materialised is zero to do with Arteta. It's unfortunate for the player, and I'm sure he'll rightly be annoyed, but this is Arsenal, and it seems to me that Arteta is reminding everyone at the club what that actually means.

This is very weird. In PL it's too much pressure and in the EL it's "who cares if he played against those garbage teams in the EL?". I'm saying that if this guy is as good as Fofana then Arsenal fans aren't so bad that playing in the EL group stage for Arsenal puts him under more pressure than Fofana is under for Leicester against Liverpool and company. 

Ray wrote:

He made a mistake, and rather than admitting it, he is being stubborn and sending him out on loan. Serious question marks over his man management and adaptability to the situation.

“I feel really bad for William Saliba,” he said. “Because we had so many central defenders, we decided to leave him out of the squad which was really hurtful for me to do.

“I was hoping that Pablo would be back in two weeks but he had a setback and then we don’t have Pablo and we don’t have William when he’s fit and available to play.

“But when you make those decisions, you can’t always think about every possible outcome.”

Sounds like he's pretty much admitting they made an error to me, and he made similar comments prior to another game.

And the initial plan was to loan him out, Arteta made it clear before Saliba even arrived back from St Ettiene that he was concerned about his experience and disruption to his 'transition year', so I'm not sure how sending him out on loan is a sign of stubbornness?

Agreed that he didn't really adapt well, he should have found a way to make him feel more involved one way or another.

There were 2 mistakes. One was the loan situation which was a 2 part mistake from what I've read, one waiting till a couple of days before the window closed to make a decision on his availability for loan and then not getting the paper work sorted.

After that fuck up I think it was a mistake to keep him excluded. At that point with the mistake made you don't compound it by not giving the lad any game time. Thats crazy, he didn't fuck up the paperwork.

Qwiss! wrote:

There were 2 mistakes. One was the loan situation which was a 2 part mistake from what I've read, one waiting till a couple of days before the window closed to make a decision on his availability for loan and then not getting the paper work sorted.

After that fuck up I think it was a mistake to keep him excluded. At that point with the mistake made you don't compound it by not giving the lad any game time. Thats crazy, he didn't fuck up the paperwork.

Truths, Qwiss. Both Edu and Arteta are culpable here. One unfortunate circumstance is that our Carling games were Leicester, Liverpool and City, making it hard to work around our mistakes.

I’m just glad they concluded a loan deal early. Hopefully, he is able to play quickly and impress. As with all our recent shenanigans, we must just hope that things are better going forward

goon wrote:
Ray wrote:

He made a mistake, and rather than admitting it, he is being stubborn and sending him out on loan. Serious question marks over his man management and adaptability to the situation.

“I feel really bad for William Saliba,” he said. “Because we had so many central defenders, we decided to leave him out of the squad which was really hurtful for me to do.

“I was hoping that Pablo would be back in two weeks but he had a setback and then we don’t have Pablo and we don’t have William when he’s fit and available to play.

“But when you make those decisions, you can’t always think about every possible outcome.”

Sounds like he's pretty much admitting they made an error to me, and he made similar comments prior to another game.

And the initial plan was to loan him out, Arteta made it clear before Saliba even arrived back from St Ettiene that he was concerned about his experience and disruption to his 'transition year', so I'm not sure how sending him out on loan is a sign of stubbornness?

Agreed that he didn't really adapt well, he should have found a way to make him feel more involved one way or another.

He's just come back from a season loan in France, why does he need another one?

The transition period should have been Saliba playing in Europa league / Cup games and a few PL appearances here and there, and then eventually taking over next season. Arteta messed it up by completely removing him from the first team, and refusing to admit he has handled this wrong. I honestly don't see what he is going to gain from 6 months in France again apart from game time (which isn't going to necessarily help his transition to the PL). It seems to me like Arteta just wanted him out the picture and not having to answer questions on why Saliba isn't in the squad every other week.

Qwiss! wrote:

There were 2 mistakes. One was the loan situation which was a 2 part mistake from what I've read, one waiting till a couple of days before the window closed to make a decision on his availability for loan and then not getting the paper work sorted.

After that fuck up I think it was a mistake to keep him excluded. At that point with the mistake made you don't compound it by not giving the lad any game time. Thats crazy, he didn't fuck up the paperwork.

Agree with this. Any criticism beyond this is factually baseless: suggesting that Arteta doesn't trust Saliba or is excluding him on principle is based on internet garbage.

Coombs wrote:
jones wrote:

If Saliba isn't in Artetas plans by then Edu needs to sack him on the spot. There are far more doubts about Artetas ability as a coach than there are about Salibas talent.

That's an odd way to make decisions. Arteta himself doesn't seem to doubt Saliba's talent, only his readiness, and perhaps his maturity.

If Saliba's thrown in with the WhatsApp'ing French boys who talk shit on the internet, its pretty stupid of him. Head down, work hard, prove your worth, and shut the fuck up I say. Don't talk to Guendouzi.

Arteta also clearly has a thing about CBs, yammering about what a complicated position it is and such. I'm willing to wait this one out, personally.

If you're talented enough you're ready. We're not talking about a shy kid plucked from the French reserves he was a starter for a team that finished 4th in Ligue 1, then he was bought for 30m and spent another twelve months at the same club before he got handed the #4 shirt at Arsenal. His previous managers all said he was mature beyond his age and even Arteta made some comments how he has the right attitude and mentality.

Any negative attitude picked up after having seen Mustafi and Mari who was injured for months being picked ahead of him is on Arteta. How are you supposed to put your head down and work hard when you're literally out the picture regardless of what you do.

Anyways I'm not worried he's still 19 barely an infant in centre back years. My point was I've seen him play and he's a massive talent, if Arteta after all this still doesn't want to include him or doesn't know how to handle him then he's the one that should be replaced.

Ray wrote:
goon wrote:

Sounds like he's pretty much admitting they made an error to me, and he made similar comments prior to another game.

And the initial plan was to loan him out, Arteta made it clear before Saliba even arrived back from St Ettiene that he was concerned about his experience and disruption to his 'transition year', so I'm not sure how sending him out on loan is a sign of stubbornness?

Agreed that he didn't really adapt well, he should have found a way to make him feel more involved one way or another.

He's just come back from a season loan in France, why does he need another one?

The transition period should have been Saliba playing in Europa league / Cup games and a few PL appearances here and there, and then eventually taking over next season. Arteta messed it up by completely removing him from the first team, and refusing to admit he has handled this wrong. I honestly don't see what he is going to gain from 6 months in France again apart from game time (which isn't going to necessarily help his transition to the PL). It seems to me like Arteta just wanted him out the picture and not having to answer questions on why Saliba isn't in the squad every other week.

Sorry to go all Arsene Wenger on you but I'd trust the opinion of a football pro over a a forum poster, no matter how much I respect you guys.

Arteta and his team assessed him and decided he wasn't ready to the point they felt a loan was appropriate. The mistakes made were as per Qwiss' post.

There is literally zero factual or quoted evidence to suggest Arteta wanted him out of the picture...if that were true, why not sell him?

I've never gotten that logic. Do you agree with every line-up we field, every sub, every signing? They're all done by football pros and we're all forum posters.

I trust a pro on how best to develop youth players, yes.

But since I assume you have your own opinions and that they're not always the same as what actually happens, what separates the football-related things where you go "they know better than me" from the football-related things you have your own opinion on?

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

But since I assume you have your own opinions and that they're not always the same as what actually happens, what separates the football-related things where you go "they know better than me" from the football-related things you have your own opinion on?

Fans are entitled to have opinions, particularly where we have actual tangible evidence (ie. Watching matches is tangible evidence to form an opinion). But where the is little to no tangible data (eg. Player development), I'd trust a pro who has been through that process.

Speaking of Wenger this is what he had to say "If I have a young central-defender of 20-years-old, I know he will cost me points in the season, and I have to stand up from that,"

"If I play a 28-year-old centre-back, maybe less talented, he will cost me less points.

"But I will not give a chance to a young player and at some stage I must say as a manager sometimes you feel lonely to stand up there and say, 'No, I want this boy to play because he deserves it.'

He had his mistakes, but when it came to developing youth players, he had a nose for it, Arteta hasn't done anything to prove he has yet.

Anyway, let’s look forward

[Twitter]

  • he’s made the squad tomorrow
  • their senior defender, the veteran Brazilian Dante is out injured for the season
  • since then, they’ve been playing a variety of lineups. Vieira had pretty much a different formation every game from Dante’s injury until he got fired.
  • Robson, Pelmard and Nsoki are the most frequently used defenders, typically in a back 3. But even Morgan Schniederlin has dropped in from midfield.
  • Robson was red carded in their last game... so they are very desperate. Saliba MIGHT go straight in
  • other point of interest will be the Jeff who usually plays midfield. Gouiri an AM who I mentioned in the summer is another Lyon recruit with 8 goals and 3 assists this season
Ray wrote:

Speaking of Wenger this is what he had to say "If I have a young central-defender of 20-years-old, I know he will cost me points in the season, and I have to stand up from that,"

"If I play a 28-year-old centre-back, maybe less talented, he will cost me less points.

"But I will not give a chance to a young player and at some stage I must say as a manager sometimes you feel lonely to stand up there and say, 'No, I want this boy to play because he deserves it.'

He had his mistakes, but when it came to developing youth players, he had a nose for it, Arteta hasn't done anything to prove he has yet.

This is predicated on the notion that Arteta doesn't trust youth. Nketiah, Saka, Tierney and Gabriel suggest otherwise.

Tierney and Gabriel are hardly youth. Takes a lot of guts to stick a 18-21 year old in a defensive position to develop.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

I've never gotten that logic. Do you agree with every line-up we field, every sub, every signing? They're all done by football pros and we're all forum posters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#:~:text=The%20Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger%20effect%20is,recognize%20their%20lack%20of%20ability.

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability. It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from people's inability to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, people cannot objectively evaluate their level of competence.

Thank you dear devil, I will definitely read that article.

Ray wrote:

Tierney and Gabriel are hardly youth. Takes a lot of guts to stick a 18-21 year old in a defensive position to develop.

Guts or stupidity?

How many young players did Wenger stick into the Arsenal line up in his first two seasons as manager? Particularly in defence?

Things were a bit different back then. There wasn't much scouting going on, and not much transfers from abroad either, so where was he gonna get a bunch of youth players from when he arrived? He had to buy them first. He did make a 20 year old Vieira who was coming off reserve football at Milan his most important player right away though. And a lot of the youth we have produced since, particularly the current lot, is because Wenger helped to refine the club structures.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

Thank you dear devil, I will definitely read that article.

😆

look ultimately as long as we don't flog him,  and he turns into the serge gnabry of centre halves, its ok. he seems pissy because he was probably given some level of assurances on playing time by raul/emery and feels hard done by