Claudius wrote:

That's a false impression Ricky. When you look at how deals are reported, that's very close to how they are often structured. It's very unlikely that the income statement amortisation reflects the cashflow. So for the West Ham deal

Income statement amortisation - will be exactly as you say. Haller will be 45m + 2.5m*5  = 57,5m. Which is £11,5m annual cost
Of that, £9m / year will face an 18-19% tax Shield. Ie., by reporting it, West Ham will save about £2m in taxes per year
This stuff above is not real money. It's for reporting purposes

Cash flow. - will depend on the deal structure.

• Salary portion will be exactly the same £2.5m per year
• Fee portion. The £45m (excluding bonuses) might be broken out in 3 years like £35m, £5m, £5m. But most of the guaranteed money will typically be upfront in most deals. It's the bonus money that typically ends up trailing.
  This is the real money. What West Ham actually pay Haller, Frankfurt and agent Jones

I understand there's the difference in reality betwen amortisation, or the way in which the money is recorded, and the reality in terms of cashflow, but I appreciate your make it clearer.

Where I disagree is I can't see it being likely that West Ham have £35m sitting there ready to hand over to Frankfurt, especially having already signed Pablo Fornals for £24m.

invisibleman18 wrote:

What's the point of bringing someone on loan? Are we really that skint that we can't buy anyone? Realise the budget is lower without CL but why can even West Ham can make 45 million pound signings?

It does sound like that is the case, or we are looking to make other first XI signings and haven't got money to do all the deals? My impression seem to be the wages are the bigger issue as our income has gone down in recent years and our wage bill has gone up.

Even if he joins and leaves next summer, as long as we get back into the CL places then I can live with that. He may end up staying, Kovacic was seen as a nailed on to take over after Modric/Kroos but he left. It sounds like R.Madrid are open to selling Ceballos as well so might look to sneak an option to buy in. The position we have got ourselves into we may have to do some deals which in the long term might not be beneficial because a few more years out of the CL will really fuck us up.

Ricky1985 wrote:

Claudius wrote:

That's a false impression Ricky. When you look at how deals are reported, that's very close to how they are often structured. It's very unlikely that the income statement amortisation reflects the cashflow. So for the West Ham deal

Income statement amortisation - will be exactly as you say. Haller will be 45m + 2.5m*5  = 57,5m. Which is £11,5m annual cost
Of that, £9m / year will face an 18-19% tax Shield. Ie., by reporting it, West Ham will save about £2m in taxes per year
This stuff above is not real money. It's for reporting purposes

Cash flow. - will depend on the deal structure.

• Salary portion will be exactly the same £2.5m per year
• Fee portion. The £45m (excluding bonuses) might be broken out in 3 years like £35m, £5m, £5m. But most of the guaranteed money will typically be upfront in most deals. It's the bonus money that typically ends up trailing.
  This is the real money. What West Ham actually pay Haller, Frankfurt and agent Jones

I understand there's the difference in reality betwen amortisation, or the way in which the money is recorded, and the reality in terms of cashflow, but I appreciate your make it clearer.

Where I disagree is I can't see it being likely that West Ham have £35m sitting there ready to hand over to Frankfurt, especially having already signed Pablo Fornals for £24m.

You're wrong on both accounts here Ricky. Frankfurt receive 75% of the fee immediately and the rest next summer plus Hallers wage is 7m EUR a season

Can't believe West Ham are getting Haller. If my feelings are right about him they'll probably sell him for twice that fee to United next summer.

Jed wrote:

Clrnc wrote:

Lol you are taking the piss. He is 4 times the player Willock is currently as good as he was in the friendly just now. 

Even if he was (which I doubt), do you want to develop the guy for Real Madrid or develop our own talents instead?

Depends -do you want to qualify for the Champions league this season or not?

jones wrote:

You're wrong on both accounts here Ricky. Frankfurt receive 75% of the fee immediately and the rest next summer plus Hallers wage is 7m EUR a season

I defer to your knowledge of the situation.

West Ham going for it big time then.

Yeah the info is credible, local Frankfurt paper with connections to the club. Wages might be a bit lower but definitely 6m+

Even the dildo brothers make for better owners than Harry Potter and the Moustache of Doom

Have Frankfurt done any good business this summer with all the cash they must be sitting on now, Jones? They signed Kostic permanently, didn't they? Is the plan that Rebic will step up next season with Jovic and Haller gone?

jones wrote:

Yeah the info is credible, local Frankfurt paper with connections to the club. Wages might be a bit lower but definitely 6m+

Even the dildo brothers make for better owners than Harry Potter and the Moustache of Doom

Maybe, but you wouldn't exactly be shocked in a couple of years if it turned out their grand plans hadn't worked out and West Ham were deep in a financial hole as a result.

Anyone can chuck a £50-100m here and there on a one off basis, it really isn't that hard with the money coming in to PL clubs.

Over the last 3 seasons West Ham's net spend was 90m vs our 60m. Doesn't look great.

On the other hand we've spent roughly £300m more than them on wages in the same period. This is a far more realistic measure of the level of spending from a club, and we blow 75% of the league out of the water when it comes to that. So yeah, West Ham are not really breaking their backs buy making these signings as long as they can keep their wage bill at a sustainable level.

goon wrote:

Anyone can chuck a £50-100m here and there on a one off basis, it really isn't that hard with the money coming in to PL clubs.

Over the last 3 seasons West Ham's net spend was 90m vs our 60m. Doesn't look great.

On the other hand we've spent roughly £300m more than them on wages in the same period. This is a far more realistic measure of the level of spending from a club, and we blow 75% of the league out of the water when it comes to that. So yeah, West Ham are not really breaking their backs buy making these signings as long as they can keep their wage bill at a sustainable level.

Also important to look at longer trends. The pretender clubs have low stock of talent so they necessarily need to spend big just to catch up. The big clubs might already have accumulated talent over years. Our talent stock includes a Mesut Ozil who was bought 6 years ago for example. And as you say, the salaries the big clubs are able to pay blow everyone else out of the water

Mirth wrote:

Jed wrote:

Even if he was (which I doubt), do you want to develop the guy for Real Madrid or develop our own talents instead?

Depends -do you want to qualify for the Champions league this season or not?

Are we guaranteed CL with him here?

No but it probably gives us a better chance than just giving the mins to Willock or Douzi, as much as I like them. Also I'd say chances are if he has a good loan spell here Madrid will be open to selling him permanently next summer regardless. They'll always prefer the big money so that they can sign a high profile player of their choice.

Claudius wrote:

Also important to look at longer trends. The pretender clubs have low stock of talent so they necessarily need to spend big just to catch up. The big clubs might already have accumulated talent over years. Our talent stock includes a Mesut Ozil who was bought 6 years ago for example. And as you say, the salaries the big clubs are able to pay blow everyone else out of the water

Yep. Put it this way, there's a reason why we finish well above these clubs and I'm guessing no one here thinks it's because we're really well run.

goon wrote:

No but it probably gives us a better chance than just giving the mins to Willock or Douzi, as much as I like them. Also I'd say chances are if he has a good loan spell here Madrid will be open to selling him permanently next summer regardless. They'll always prefer the big money so that they can sign a high profile player of their choice.

And if we don't qualify for the CL and he heads back to Madrid or they sell him to someone else where does that leave us?

This is short term focus once again. Unless we have some stage in his future I think its a mistake to bring in players on loan like this in key areas where we could be nurturing our own talent for the long term.

Qwiss! wrote:

goon wrote:

No but it probably gives us a better chance than just giving the mins to Willock or Douzi, as much as I like them. Also I'd say chances are if he has a good loan spell here Madrid will be open to selling him permanently next summer regardless. They'll always prefer the big money so that they can sign a high profile player of their choice.

And if we don't qualify for the CL and he heads back to Madrid or they sell him to someone else where does that leave us?

This is where I come down on the issue too. I don't think we're likely to make Champions League either way. If Ceballos was good enough to make such a big contribution I don't think Real Madrid would loan him to us to begin with. Zidane wants to rejuvenate their midfield and still has no place for him?

Qwiss! wrote:

This is short term focus once again. Unless we have some stage in his future I think its a mistake to bring in players on loan like this in key areas where we could be nurturing our own talent for the long term.

Yep. If we were offered a genuine top class player I'd take the deal but not someone who made 13 starts for them last year. I think Ceballos might be brilliant two years from now, and we'll be standing jealously on the sideline watching him, acutely aware that we had a hand in getting him there.

So we play Willock in midfield instead?

I don't think Willock is the only one we've got. Last time I looked we still have Guendouzi and Torreira at the club too. Ideally we'd sign someone though; someone we can get on a permanent deal. It would make it feel more worthwhile to put time and minutes into their development.

We still need goals to come in on a consistent basis via some other position than through the fullbacks. Not sure if a Ceballos will help provide that.