Yes, there is truth in what you're saying Mirth. See how this summer pans out. I'm sadly not expecting things to be much different from the norm.

BWoolley wrote:

goon wrote:

And yet they finished just a point ahead of us and haven't won a trophy in over a decade.

Seriously, Tottenham is not who we should be aspiring to 'catch'.

I agree with you that we should be aspiring to Liverpool and not Sp*rs. However, this whole trophy argument is bizarre tbh. People said the same thing about Klopp never having won a final etc etc (of course, he has Bundesliga titles under his belt, so not exactly the same). One way to put it is that they finished just a point ahead of us. The other way to see it is that they have finished ahead of us two years in a row with lower spend on the squad and a significantly lower wage bill (which is the primary driver). While I agree that can't be the aspiration, I would disagree with the "just a point ahead".

I don't disagree that they've managed themselves better in recent seasons, but you're initial post painted a picture of a team that's way ahead of us on and off the pitch. In reality it took a disastrous run in from us to finish behind them in the league in what is our biggest transitional period in over two decades. They've gone from meekly challenging Leicester for the league to being about as relevant to the conversation as we are. They've not been moving forward and they've not bought anyone particularly good recently.  

They are in the CL and we arent. That's a huge difference. Perception is everything nowadays. They also have a better coach than we do obviously.

jones wrote:

We should aspire to be Arsenal ffs. Liverpool have won a CL due to the most embarrassing downing of tools of Barcelona and their last league title was witnessed by less than half the forum. How do you not feel shame saying stuff like aspiring to be them? Shades of Ox wanking Gerrard off on camera

Objectively, I feel no shame in saying that we should aspire to be a club getting 97 points in the season, conceding the least goals, getting to their 2nd CL final in a row (which they won) and one that seems to have a conscious, reasonably thought out and ambitious transfer strategy. Don't really care what they are called, but that is what we should be aspiring to.

Harder to digest the small complex developing with regards to Spurs amongst the Arsenal fanbase than them signing a talented midfielder who will undoubtedly improve them because he is a good fit for their style of football.

I really don't think we are that far behind. Spurs have finished ahead of us in 3 consecutive seasons after being in our shadow for over 20. We make the right moves ourselves and we should be ok in the long run. Spurs still have to contend with the expectation of higher wages that will surely begin.

The gap isn’t that vast plus we have so much scope to improve purely on the fact that we were handicapped by such a poor defence.

Bolster the back line and the attack improves as it has a better platform to take confidence from

[Twitter]

He'll a decent signing for them.

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:

The gap isn’t that vast plus we have so much scope to improve purely on the fact that we were handicapped by such a poor defence.

Bolster the back line and the attack improves as it has a better platform to take confidence from

That’s the spirit. I agree with this. I’m not a fan of voyeurism. Let’s focus on what we can control and the marginal improvements we can make in obvious pinch points, under current restrictions. As long as we do our best in that regard, I’ll be at peace. This summer window was always going to be a total farce anyway. 40 million quid for transfers. In 2019.

Ricky1985 wrote:

[Twitter]

He'll a decent signing for them.

It's a much smarter move from United than we've seen recently, but in the grand scheme of things I'm not sure how much it will help.

He's not a modern fullback because he's medicore technically; he can only play half the position. That's why I said decent because that's all he is. £50m is a lot to pay for that, but I agree, in terms of profile, it's an improvement for them.

Wan Bissaka was pretty incredible last season but he's only had 1 good season in the top flight so who knows how good he will turn out to be. His strength lie in defense so his rather lacklustre offensive game could be exposed at United.

But he'll be a significant upgrade on Ashley Young that's for sure.

I think Wan Bissaka has a lot of potential. He is extremely difficult to beat cleanly, and chases down everything. Going forward is he not bad, and can improve.

I have seen him a few times and spoken with him, I swear he is an Arsenal fan, but of course, we had no chance. It will be interesting to see his development.

Ricky1985 wrote:

He's not a modern fullback because he's medicore technically; he can only play half the position. That's why I said decent because that's all he is. £50m is a lot to pay for that, but I agree, in terms of profile, it's an improvement for them.

Good point. It will be interesting to see how he does at United where the demands are very different. 

The new Ashley Young

Wan Bissaka is one of the rare modern fullback that I can say is better at defending than attacking. He is absolutely incredible 1v1 against top class wingers, probably the best I have seen since Ashley Cole. Attacking he was nothing special last year, but I guess he has another level in him given that he was a winger previously. Wishlisted him but 50m is way out of our league, good signing for the cunts

Diawara-manolas swap deal almost done. Both players i would've liked us to be interested in this summer

Clrnc wrote:

Wan Bissaka is one of the rare modern fullback that I can say is better at defending than attacking. He is absolutely incredible 1v1 against top class wingers, probably the best I have seen since Ashley Cole. Attacking he was nothing special last year, but I guess he has another level in him given that he was a winger previously. Wishlisted him but 50m is way out of our league, good signing for the cunts

He has very poor technical ability, that can't change now. So he is what he is.

To be honest, the £50m United are paying for him just highlights what a fantasic deal Kieran Tierney would be at even £25m. Daylight robbery in fact.

Clrnc wrote:

Wan Bissaka is one of the rare modern fullback that I can say is better at defending than attacking. He is absolutely incredible 1v1 against top class wingers, probably the best I have seen since Ashley Cole. Attacking he was nothing special last year, but I guess he has another level in him given that he was a winger previously. Wishlisted him but 50m is way out of our league, good signing for the cunts

As i don't watch Palace week-in week-out i had a look at his figures and they are even more impressive when you find out he is 3 and a half years younger than Robertson.
https://statsbomb.com/2019/04/what-does-a-fullback-do-in-2019/

Wan-Bissaka looks like a generational defensive talent. Tierney looks like a decent all-rounder.

So Wan-Bissaka joins Alexander-Arnold in Ricky's list of "not quite Tierney" backs.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

So Wan-Bissaka joins Alexander-Arnold in Ricky's list of "not quite Tierney" backs.

They’ll wipe their tears with their Benjamins.

Now he is a manu player, i immediately dislike him and would be happy if he flops.

Shame - wouldn’t have minded Diawara here

Klaus wrote:

I refuse to live in a world where Spurs have Ndombele and we've got Xhaka entering his 4th year in our midfield.

We had 5.5 years of Giroud being our first choice striker and 3 years of Alumunia, this club has no fucking shame!

Big Willie wrote:

Exactly. For only 65m as well? This is nuts if we aren't involved in this signing. Ignoring his on field contributions for a second, just the sell on value in a few years alone would be worth it.

No CL means for players like him we aren't an option.

Clrnc wrote:

Why isn't Madrid or PSG etc buying Ndombele? Stupid idiots disappear when we need them.

Supposedly doesn't want to join PSG and surprised R.Madrid aren't interested. They seem fixated on Pogba, which might explain why Spurs are getting a clean run at him. No other big club showing interest.

Kel Varnsen wrote:

But, it is interesting to see that Spurs are able and willing to splash out £65 mill on a player right after their stadium is done, and in spite of the escalating costs. We can talk about why this is happening all day, but fact is that both Liverpool and Tottenham appear more ambitious than us. We are about to be left behind unless something changes.

We're already miles behind Liverpool and as for Spurs, isn't this the third season in a row we've finished behind them? Other two we've been comfortably behind them but last season had ample opportunities to finish above and fucked all of them up.

Honestly think Spurs will not repeat what they did last season. Be interesting to see how they’ll cope with rough period

I don’t think there is much between us and Spurs. However if they sign someone like Ndombele & we only make incremental improvements then they will leave us behind.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

So Wan-Bissaka joins Alexander-Arnold in Ricky's list of "not quite Tierney" backs.

I didn't say Wan-Bissaka was inferior to Tierney. I said getting Tierney for less than half the price would be great business.

It would make for much better conversation if you offered an opinion of your own rather than laughing at someone else's.

So do you think he is superior or do you think he is inferior and just felt like saying that you hadn't explicitly stated that yet? I didn't really go off that specific post, you've both said that "decent is all he is" about Wan-Bissaka because he can only play half the position, and that it's too late to change the technical aspects of his game. You've also said that Tierney is "clearly a bit special", which led me to believe that he's the better fullback, but correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have an opinion on Tierney as I've stated in his thread, but I don't agree with this binary view where it's just yes/no on defensive and offensive abilities. A back who is superb defensively and average offensively can be much better than a decent fullback. Same goes for superb offensively and average defensively.

I said Tierney was a bit special based off his achievements; I made it clear I have hardly watched him play outside of YouTube. The fact that he won 3 straight double YPotY awards and got in 3 straight TotS immediately following his in breakthrough at 17, clearly marks him out.

I have seen more of Wan-Bissaka and he is genuinely below average on the ball: His passing is really poor, his crossing is basic, his touch and dribbling no better than average. I like his defensive game a lot; very athletic and agile. I think he dives in a bit too much but he seems to have a knack of getting it right, similar to YouTube clips I've seen of Tierney actually. Question marks still remain as to whether that continues over a longer period than one season and when placed under more scrutiny at United. I would add "and against attackers in the Champions League" but he won't have to worry about that for a while at least.

I just don't appreciate the tone, and it is something with you that I have felt more than a few times now. I don't think I am dismissive of your opinion or rude when I disagree with you? So I don't rate Alexander-Arnold's defensive game, who gives a damn? It's my opinion and I have explained why I hold that view loads of times and in great detail. I don't think any less of you for mindlessly following the majority view that everything about the kid must be amazing because he's got a cracking delivery on him and he plays for the Champions League winners. Only kidding!

But, seriously, if you disagree and think you're safe in mocking because you have the overwhelming majority on your side, don't. It doesn't stimulate debate or conversation, it does the opposite.

I have never meant to mock anyone in a way that's manevolent as opposed to humorous, so I (honestly) apologize if I haven't quite managed to keep my intended tone.

I still disagree that you need to be a complete player to be a good one. Having strengths and weaknesses is fine. Özil on form was a fantastic CAM even when his shooting was awful, and Sagna was our best fullback since I started watching regularly even though he was nothing to write home about offensively. If you can play a four man defense with only one (?) defensively great player and still let in the least goals in the league, then why not.

Tons of transfer activites ongoing, surprised we are not taking interest in Theo Hernandez and selling Kola for him.

Anyway summary from Di Marzio
-Theo Hernandez to Milan on loan with option to buy
-Gigio Donnarumma. AC Milan want €50M to sell him, PSG consider also to insert Alphonse Areola in a possible swap.
-Joao Felix is new Atlético Madrid player. €126M to Benfica, deal done
-Juventus have agreement with de Ligt for his contract: 2024, €12M/season [add ons included, precisely €8M + add ons].

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

I still disagree that you need to be a complete player to be a good one. Having strengths and weaknesses is fine. Özil on form was a fantastic CAM even when his shooting was awful, and Sagna was our best fullback since I started watching regularly even though he was nothing to write home about offensively. If you can play a four man defense with only one (?) defensively great player and still let in the least goals in the league, then why not.

I agree Sagna was an excellent right back, and Wan-Bissaka does remind me a little of him (although he'll do well to be half as good). Sagna improved his crossing with hard work to a decent standard but his touch, dribbling, passing and combination play was still poor to average, and it was 12 years ago when he arrived at Arsenal; the game was different, fullbacks at top clubs in England were asked, by and large, to get up and down and provide width and even then the holes in his game made him a frustrating player when we had the ball, and as time went on he struggled more with what was asked of him.

Now it's moved on even further: Fullbacks have to be able to pick the ball up from the keeper or centrebacks, play in tight areas, and progress play. They have become much more than players that just stretch the pitch with dummy runs and occasional crosses. With the tactical shift towards greater compactness, fullbacks at the top teams have to be able to deliver crosses and final balls with good efficiency and take advantage of the space created for them.

It's why we see so many wingers and centre midfielders being converted into fullbacks.

I'm not saying a player has to be a complete player (it'd be nice if they were), but I disagree with your use of Mesut Özil as an example: Positions on a football pitch aren't equal to one another and especially not in different tactical environments.  A striker in a 2-man strikeforce doesn't have to be complete, a centreback in a team that exclusively sits deep or the third man in a back 3 where he's tasked with advancing the ball, doesn't have to be complete, Mesut Özil when he gets 20+ assists in a team that scores 2+ goals/game doesn't have to be able to score that often. Indeed a fullback in a team that plays deep and defensively pretty much exclusively, doesn't have to be complete; although I'd argue it's much more important for a fullback to be well rounded than in most other positions.

Wan-Bissaka is going to a team that are better than 75% of the Premier League and expect to be better than 95% ordinarily. He will face a different challenge to that which he faced at Palace: Who are worse than 75% of the League and set themselves up accordingly. The emphasis will be on his ability to play in tight areas, progress the ball, get on the outside and then produce efficiency when he delivers into the box or plays a final ball. I'm not convinced by that half of his game at all. And defending transitions, as defenders at top clubs have to do with much greater regularity, is a whole different ball game to defending deep in a block.

So let's see how he gets on. He could prove to be great for them but I foresee shortcomings in his game that make it far from a sure thing.

Sagna was one of the best right backs in the Premier Leagues history. You couldn't name three right backs in Europe in the last 20 years better defensively, aerial prowess like a centre back and barely let anyone past him despite playing with a striker in front of him if it wasnt for him Theo would've moved to Everton at 23 not 29. Wan Bissaka will do well to reach half his level and I actually rate him.

Agreed. I'd be over the moon if we signed a new Sagna. Bloke was vital to our attacking game too even if he didn't score or assist that much. Without him you never had anyone providing passing angles in midfield and the spaces between the banks became too big. We've suffered from this ever since he left, regardless of who's playing and who the manager is, so it clearly isn't an easy thing to replace just because you employ more attackminded fullbacks or more hardworking wingers.

I think you can interpret a position like fullback in many ways, but the Sagna/Thuram school is the one I'd side with almost every time unless you happen to have a Marcelo or a Dani Alves lying around. The actual number of fullbacks who contribute enough offensively to merit the team being built around their output is exceedingly small though. I can think of one or maybe two players in addition to the two already mentioned from the last two decades. I get stuck on Maicon and after that I'm honestly not sure. I think the attacking fullback and his extreme importance to the team is at least partly a myth.

It's like when everyone in England wanted physical, quick, tall, technical, all-action midfielders in the Vieira mould. It ended up flooding Premier League with pointless imports because people failed to understand that Vieira was a once in a generation player, maybe once in several generations. Freaks like Pogba and Milinkovic-Savic are extremely valuable for this reason, it's true, but even most top clubs don't have guys like that and they still manage to play their football. There's more than one way to skin a cat. I haven't seen a ton of Wan-Bissaka, but I admire what I have seen. If we had the money I'd take him over anyone we have and have been linked to. I think he's going to be grand for United unfortunately.

Marca and Telegraaf are reporting that Real are going after Van de Beek.

Fully agree with that the above posts, I would take a proper defensive full, over an attacking one, unless the attacking one truly adds to your game.

You end up having a flashy, but no substance full back, who doesn’t really assist or is a real threat going forward, yet can barley defend one vs one.

I don't know. Pep is probably the best coach around and has invested more in the full back areas than anywhere else on the pitch, and it's certainly not for the defensive qualities of the likes of Walker and Mendy. Liverpool also play with two very attacking full backs, one of whom is very dodgy defensively.

I think the modern game dictates that everyone needs to be good on the ball, keeper included. Full backs actually join in with play in the attacking third so they need to have even more qualities going forward. They're absolutely key to unlocking or stretching deep, compact defences which big teams come up against 80% of the time. On the other hand, we got to the CL final with Flamini and Eboue at full back with a record number of clean sheets. I think it's a lot easier to find a defensive fullback than an attacking one.

I love Sagna in his prime, utter professional and incredible defensively but if you look back at the threads those days on matchdays plenty complains about his lack of attacking nouns which hurt us very badly considering we attack a lot through our fullbacks (similar complains too about how bad Clichy crossing is). When he finally left he was way way past his prime and it was a good decision we didn't give him the big contract he demanded, totally couldn't cut it at City. Bellerin came through and he was like a fresh breath of air, someone suddenly attacking massively doing overlaps underlaps.

Nowadays attacking fullbacks are invaluable. Most top fullbacks are better in attack than defence. In fact most winning teams have no defensive fullbacks at all.

JazzG wrote:

I don’t think there is much between us and Spurs. However if they sign someone like Ndombele & we only make incremental improvements then they will leave us behind.

Only hope is they lose one of Eriksen/Kane, but that's feeling less likely by the day....