I'm just looking forward to seeing the tantrum from whoever loses.

Tbh this has been the least interesting election I've witnessed, even from an entertainment perspective. The arguments are ridiculous, the candidates are ridiculous and the media are ridiculous.

Yep. The spectacle of Trump is well and truly played out. Biden offers nothing, the least inspiring presidential candidate imaginable. There is no discussion about any of the issues facing America or the world. Its all pointless.

The discussion feels right now. Decency versus indecency. Trump has achieved nothing material for 4 years. All he has done is legimtize white nationalists who are now threatening people as they campaign, govern and vote. It’s as simple as getting him out at this point.
And the you can deal with the issues or justices, health etc. The Trump issue is existential. Store fronts are boarded up because of expected violence. I’ve never seen an American election played out on these terms of violence, lies, intimidation, brazen voter suppression, etc.

Yeah I don't agree with any of that. Biden isn't decent and Trump isn't an existential threat.

I’ve never seen an American election played out on these terms of violence, lies, intimidation, brazen voter suppression, etc.

Voter suppression goes back way further than Trump. "Lies" come on, every election is ran on lies. Plenty of American elections are played out on violence, domestically racial violence has been a problem forever, however its internationally where the violence really gets the voters going and the candidates pushing death and destruction.

Trumps probably going to lose this election but the idea that it'll do anything to fix America is a fantasy.

Claudius wrote:

The discussion feels right now. Decency versus indecency. Trump has achieved nothing material for 4 years. All he has done is legimtize white nationalists who are now threatening people as they campaign, govern and vote. It’s as simple as getting him out at this point.
And the you can deal with the issues or justices, health etc. The Trump issue is existential. Store fronts are boarded up because of expected violence. I’ve never seen an American election played out on these terms of violence, lies, intimidation, brazen voter suppression, etc.

Oh sure, for those of you living in the US I hope Biden wins and calms the social unrest but really it feels like a false dawn. The solution to Trump isn't bringing in the policies that gave us Trump in the first place. The likely outcome, in a bid for unity, Biden will adopt collective amnesia and pretend the last 4 years didn't happen. But it did and the social, economical and cultural fears for a vast majority of Americans still hasn't been addressed across the political spectrum. Trump overplayed his hand, particularly in the last six months, but he's shown an alternative, distasteful as it may be. Biden is just a placeholder until the Democrats think up something better.

The difference between Trump and his predecessors is he has validated topically fringe characters. In which previous elections would you have seen someone like Whittmer threatened by domestic terrorists? Which previous elections have had men in SUVs physically stopping people from campaigning and voting? You basically need to go back to black people in the 60s and women in the 20s to see such brazen acts of anti-democracy. These aren’t the wily acts of the GOP gerrymandering and quashing voting rights laws.

The president is inciting violence. For whatever reason people do not want to speak about this guy in the right terms. He’s an anti democratic despot. He’s not a conventional president and trying to compare him and this to previous elections is a dangerous exercise. This is how you normalize tyranny.

I do agree with Mirth though that Trump overplayed his hand. If someone smart like a Putin had assumed this power, there’d be more trouble. That’s why it’s important the Democratic Party understand how it abandoned the working class etc.

Imagine facing the choice of undemocratic plutocracy vs outright dictatorship. Biden really is a no mark that spent his whole career trying to find something to stand for. You cast your mind back to the primaries where he was being attacked from the left, and could barely fill the 30 seconds alloted to him to respond. He's owes obama bigtime for giving him any relevance to begin with. Now he looks like a genius next to the increasing insanity of trump. The democrats will come to all the wrong conclusions if biden wins in a sweep, then act all shocked when characters like buttigieg or kamala get pantsed in 2024

That’s exactly my fear. These elections, (if Biden wins in a sweep), would be more a rejection of Trump’s brand of politics rather than an endorsement of Democratic policies / candidates. They need to realize that and pivot accordingly.

Gazza M wrote:

Imagine facing the choice of undemocratic plutocracy vs outright dictatorship. Biden really is a no mark that spent his whole career trying to find something to stand for. You cast your mind back to the primaries where he was being attacked from the left, and could barely fill the 30 seconds alloted to him to respond. He's owes obama bigtime for giving him any relevance to begin with. Now he looks like a genius next to the increasing insanity of trump. The democrats will come to all the wrong conclusions if biden wins in a sweep, then act all shocked when characters like buttigieg or kamala get pantsed in 2024

That said, I still think he was the best candidate for this particular election. The swing voters would’ve turned against many of those other candidates. 

Not talked about so much now that Biden is doing so well is the role misogyny played in dropping Hillary in 2020. People come up with a million other names for it but at the end when you really probe it’s just that. It would’ve played out similarly for Warren, Klobuchar, etc. Buttigieg would’ve had issues with social conservatives, and the Republican message against Bernie would’ve been very concise. A lot of these guys are popular with highly engaged, highly liberal types, but that is far from the average American voter. You need to market the product that will sell. 

Biden is a clever nomination in that he is neither here nor there. As vanilla as vanilla can be.

Claudius wrote:

The president is inciting violence. For whatever reason people do not want to speak about this guy in the right terms. He’s an anti democratic despot. He’s not a conventional president and trying to compare him and this to previous elections is a dangerous exercise. This is how you normalize tyranny.

You can't vote away anti-democratic tyranny. American tyranny will persist after Trump. Claiming other US presidents are different is exactly why tyranny has been normalised.

Tambourine Man wrote:

Biden is a clever nomination in that he is neither here nor there. As vanilla as vanilla can be.

He's not a clever nomination. Covid exposed Trump, without it he'd easily have beaten Biden. Dems (probably) got lucky.

Qwiss! wrote:

Tambourine Man wrote:

Biden is a clever nomination in that he is neither here nor there. As vanilla as vanilla can be.

He's not a clever nomination. Covid exposed Trump, without it he'd easily have beaten Biden. Dems (probably) got lucky.

Trump is an idiot. He made messaging easy. Early this year, Lindsey Graham met him privately and told him to have a 4 pronged plan. Deal with Covid by following the scientists; nationalise DACA kids; implement police reform; and announce a big infrastructure plan. There’d be no contest under a rational man. Trump ignored all of that and went big on law & and order and white nationalism. Unstable imbecile 

flobaba wrote:

That’s exactly my fear. These elections, (if Biden wins in a sweep), would be more a rejection of Trump’s brand of politics rather than an endorsement of Democratic policies / candidates. They need to realize that and pivot accordingly.

They won't sadly. They'll remain comfortably beholden to donors until there's a major voter backlash or the insurgent leftist elements of the party gain control somehow

Qwiss! wrote:

Claudius wrote:

The president is inciting violence. For whatever reason people do not want to speak about this guy in the right terms. He’s an anti democratic despot. He’s not a conventional president and trying to compare him and this to previous elections is a dangerous exercise. This is how you normalize tyranny.

You can't vote away anti-democratic tyranny. American tyranny will persist after Trump. Claiming other US presidents are different is exactly why tyranny has been normalised.

I broadly don't care about US politics anymore, if Americans can't bothered to organise around basics like gun control or some form of subsidised healthcare then it's a lost cause. My only skin in the game is the hope that Biden will be better for the environment than Trump.

I hear where Claud is coming from because millions of Americans have found the last four years difficult and another four years will be overwhelming. But, in truth, Trump while spewing a whole bunch of lies and mistruths, has also asked very personal questions that don't usually get asked of the establishment. A good President should not air dirty laundry in public and have riots in the street, it should be done covertly by the CIA, on another street - preferably in another continent. For the middle class the past four years are an extension of the 'Mitchell and Webb' sketch where folks have to ask themselves where they (the US) are, in fact, 'the baddies' and you effectively now have groups that think the US is either the best or worst place in the world.

Contrarian opinion number two - as much as I generally think Biden the candidate is better than Trump, I wonder if Biden losing will actually bring about a moment of reflection for the Democrats and set them straight. Now, another four years of Trump will not be pleasant, but broadly speaking American institutions still are strong enough to take it - even if they aren't as good as they used to be. But obviously I get to say this with the luxury of living in another country so I can make that bet. I understand why voters don't necessarily feel that way.

Biden reminds me of the inanimate carbon rod as our GK. Looks like anyone that is not overly scandalous should win against Trump and his record these last 4 years.

Mirth wrote:

Qwiss! wrote:

You can't vote away anti-democratic tyranny. American tyranny will persist after Trump. Claiming other US presidents are different is exactly why tyranny has been normalised.

I broadly don't care about US politics anymore, if Americans can't bothered to organise around basics like gun control or some form of subsidised healthcare then it's a lost cause. My only skin in the game is the hope that Biden will be better for the environment than Trump.

I hear where Claud is coming from because millions of Americans have found the last four years difficult and another four years will be overwhelming. But, in truth, Trump while spewing a whole bunch of lies and mistruths, has also asked very personal questions that don't usually get asked of the establishment. A good President should not air dirty laundry in public and have riots in the street, it should be done covertly by the CIA, on another street - preferably in another continent. For the middle class the past four years are an extension of the 'Mitchell and Webb' sketch where folks have to ask themselves where they (the US) are, in fact, 'the baddies' and you effectively now have groups that think the US is either the best or worst place in the world.

Contrarian opinion number two - as much as I generally think Biden the candidate is better than Trump, I wonder if Biden losing will actually bring about a moment of reflection for the Democrats and set them straight. Now, another four years of Trump will not be pleasant, but broadly speaking American institutions still are strong enough to take it - even if they aren't as good as they used to be. But obviously I get to say this with the luxury of living in another country so I can make that bet. I understand why voters don't necessarily feel that way.

Pretty much agree with every bit of that. Biden is better on the environment but only if you believe him, Obama talked a good game on it too but did fuck all and didn't meet agreed goals etc.

The 4 years of Trump vs 8-16 of Biden/Kamala or the next Trump is the other side of it. Is American capable of change though, would someone like Bernie have been able to make a difference even if he won the primaries? If it can't maybe the best we can hope for is that its just a cautionary tale for the rest of us, especially in Europe.

I think Trump might win but I hope I'm wrong. People underrate how much hate there is for the political and medial elite though; way more than for the economical elite that Trump belongs to.