Circus circa 2020: Page 41 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Circus circa 2020

flobaba

It’s too steep a price to pay to get rid of Trump, even for me. Much too steep.

MistaT

Increasing chatter about a Biden-Warren ticket. No one will be that happy with the compromise, but I could see it help voter turnout.

Jens

I consider myself fairly up to date on American politics but I had to google who Hillary's running mate was. Don't think it makes much of a difference either way. It will take some doing to do worse than the republicans anyway. Palin, Ryan and Pence is quite the streak.

Qwiss

Jens wrote:
I consider myself fairly up to date on American politics but I had to google who Hillary's running mate was. Don't think it makes much of a difference either way. It will take some doing to do worse than the republicans anyway. Palin, Ryan and Pence is quite the streak.

I've done this several times. I always forget. I've forgotten again now. I do think Pence helped Trump bring in the Evangelicals though, it was a sign he wouldn't betray them. I'm not sure anyone can do something similar for Biden.

Claudius

Qwiss! wrote:
Claudius wrote:
For the Medicare for all issue, Biden rightly pointed out that Italy and other European states are devastated. So having state care won’t prevent a virus.

What a moronic thing to say. How can anyone take that sort of thing seriously? All the people who'd agree with him on that now would be calling it idiotic if Trump said it.

The situation as it is right now is much more a failure of public health than it is an issue of there being no state-based health insurance system. If the USA had its public health act together, it would be in a much better place than it is regardless of its its insurance system.

It’s important to differentiate root causes of issues. I think most of us are I agreement that ethically it is better to have a state based insurance system. And if the government is an efficient operator, you should be able to save a lot of money relative to the status quo while also achieving the universal coverage that a commercial system desperately lacks. Education and health are government responsibilities.

Klaus

What the heck is state-based insurance?

Personally I think it's pretty obvious that it's the capitalistic aspect of American healthcare in general that is probably about to turn the US into the worst example of corona spread in the world: people initially not getting tested because they can't afford the bill; people not being guaranteed paid sick leave by the government so they can't afford to stay home if they have a fever; people not seeking treatment as the symptoms worsen for the same reason that they don't get tested. The nuts and bolts of the whole society makes social distancing and self-isolation untenable for people who don't have a lot of money.

Some of these policies have been temporarily updated through the passing of recent laws, but like in the case with the paid sick leave they're still so inadequate (companies with less than 50 and more than 500 employees don't get any money for sick leave, because corporate interests lobbied the assholes in Washington) that 85 percent of the population aren't eligible for the benefits. The Democrats should be ashamed of themselves for that shit compromise they pushed through.

Claudius

Yeah. Systematically, the USA needs to get a lot of things right. It’s not just Medicare. It’s public health. It’s also issues like time off work/ sick leave as you rightly point out. Of all the countries I’ve worked in, USA had by far the worst time off policies, including for maternity/paternity.

But I think it’s easier to do these things in certain environments. I’m a big advocate of m4a in South Africa where the ANC has not delivered promised socioeconomic gains post independence. The politics and economic structure should make it very easy. Political will is just lacking.

In America though where the healthcare industry is 1/5 of the country’s GDP and capitalism/ individualism are woven into the fabric of the country, building a socialist healthcare system will be much harder to execute. Changing the mindset and disentangling the economic linkages of the existing medical system will require real effort. It’s why I don’t foresee America implementing an m4a system anytime soon.

Qwiss

Klaus wrote:
Some of these policies have been temporarily updated through the passing of recent laws, but like in the case with the paid sick leave they're still so inadequate (companies with less than 50 and more than 500 employees don't get any money for sick leave, because corporate interests lobbied the assholes in Washington) that 85 percent of the population aren't eligible for the benefits. The Democrats should be ashamed of themselves for that shit compromise they pushed through.

The democrats have been shown for what they truly are in this crisis. Even ghouls like Mitt Romney are trying to do more for working people than the most powerful and influential democrats are.

jones

Claudius wrote:
Yeah. Systematically, the USA needs to get a lot of things right. It’s not just Medicare. It’s public health. It’s also issues like time off work/ sick leave as you rightly point out. Of all the countries I’ve worked in, USA had by far the worst time off policies, including for maternity/paternity.

But I think it’s easier to do these things in certain environments. I’m a big advocate of m4a in South Africa where the ANC has not delivered promised socioeconomic gains post independence. The politics and economic structure should make it very easy. Political will is just lacking.

In America though where the healthcare industry is 1/5 of the country’s GDP and capitalism/ individualism are woven into the fabric of the country, building a socialist healthcare system will be much harder to execute. Changing the mindset and disentangling the economic linkages of the existing medical system will require real effort. It’s why I don’t foresee America implementing an m4a system anytime soon.

I think you have it the wrong way around, you're giving the US an easy pass. Politically (as in with regards to organisation) and in terms of economic infrastructure it's not even remotely comparable trying to implement national health insurance in the richest country of the world as compared to a country that's coming out of a century of apartheid. Just because the US are making a mess of it or are too obstinate to do it doesn't mean it's harder there than in South Africa ffs.

Klaus

Qwiss! wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Some of these policies have been temporarily updated through the passing of recent laws, but like in the case with the paid sick leave they're still so inadequate (companies with less than 50 and more than 500 employees don't get any money for sick leave, because corporate interests lobbied the assholes in Washington) that 85 percent of the population aren't eligible for the benefits. The Democrats should be ashamed of themselves for that shit compromise they pushed through.

The democrats have been shown for what they truly are in this crisis. Even ghouls like Mitt Romney are trying to do more for working people than the most powerful and influential democrats are.

Which is why you get results like this:

It takes some serious effort to be so lousy at your job that you end up bumping the approval ratings of a president who has systematically demantled and defunded the healthcare and welfare systems during a literal pandemic, but the Democrats managed to find a way.

They've spent billions and leaned on every corporate media contact they have over the past year in a concerted effort to bury the one candidate among their own ranks who's running on a healthcare reform and empowering workers' rights platform. People see them for what they are, which is just a shit GOP with less conviction.

Qwiss

So now that Russian asset Tulsi has endorsed Biden should we assume Putin favours Biden?

Klaus

No shame.

Claudius

You do realise that a super pac is an independent body. I believe this one hasn’t even filed its membership at the time that they were going into elections. This is different from, say, Buttigieg meeting rich donors in wine caves.

Klaus

I do know, and it's not different at all. She said she wouldn't take money from super pacs for that very reason. Like most other things with Warren it was just a convenient lie at the time, and she used it to criticise Bernie and implied he took money from billionaires because he had the open support of a nurses union. Then she went back on her word when she ran out of cash. She knew exactly where that money came from. Fraudulent and self-serving, as always.

Klaus

Qwiss

Gazza M

Warrens complete lack of character and authenticity got exposed in the last few months. She repeatedly doubled down the centrist talking points about bernie being backed by superpacs and bernie bros being the worst group of supporters on the planet, despite both of those statements being demonstrably false. The superpac smear was particularly egregious in light of the fact she eventually took money from an actual superpac. Glad voters shat on this fraud

Gazza M

Qwiss! wrote:
So now that Russian asset Tulsi has endorsed Biden should we assume Putin favours Biden?

Hillary McCarthy and the DNC in being full of shit shocker. Not a fucking peep will be made about this

jones

Are there any American politicians left that aren't Russian assets?

Burnwinter

It's not really clear what Warren's motivations were, but empirically her campaign definitely did everything possible to hurt Sanders, splitting the progressive vote and then refusing any endorsement. It's bitterly disappointing.

I'm wondering how November will unfold now. Short of being in an existential war it's hard to imagine better grounds than this pandemic for Trump to try to do something outside the rules. I don't really expect that will happen but it seems more possible now.

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