Time for the fans to stick by the manager: Page 46 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Time for the fans to stick by the manager

Klaus

GooneriC wrote:
He has to win the Europa , otherwise he should be sacked.

I hope he leaves either way. You can tell from a mile away that he's not going to be a good long-term option for a club that needs to rediscover an identity and develop young players. You could tell with van Gaal and Mourinho at Manchester United too, and their failure to kick them out the door after their first seasons of horror football brought on their years in the wilderness as much as anything else. Every season where we hold off looking for someone better suited to the job is one that is going to be wasted. We've already lost a year where we should have been focusing on bringing back a strong core to our football.

GooneriC

Sicario wrote:
GooneriC wrote:
I don't think he is the right man for the job. His away record is disgraceful for a club of our stature.That ending to our league season cannot ever be tolerated. If we can accept that then we should accept being a mid table club and forget about top 4 and CL.

You conveniently forget he has navigated us to our first European final for 13 years.

You also haven’t mentioned our improvement against the big teams this season.

Which manager would have done a better job than him this season? Arteta? Give me a break.

Arteta ? What's he got to do with Emery's management? I will give him credit for the Europa and he has to win it to have a chance of staying on . If he doesn't we should cut him right away . We have been to soft as a club accepping mediocrity for years. We should not reward him with a second year if he doesn't win . That's all.

Sicario

Mourinho won two trophies and got this shit Utd side to second last session.

I don’t want to turn this into a Jose thread but hiring Ole has hardly done wonders.

I’m all for change if Emery flops next year but this ‘idealistic’ manager out there who is simply going to make us title challengers over night or improve us so much does not exist.

Sicario

GooneriC wrote:
Sicario wrote:
You conveniently forget he has navigated us to our first European final for 13 years.

You also haven’t mentioned our improvement against the big teams this season.

Which manager would have done a better job than him this season? Arteta? Give me a break.

Arteta ? What's he got to do with Emery's management? I will give him credit for the Europa and he has to win it to have a chance of staying on . If he doesn't we should cut him right away . We have been to soft as a club accepping mediocrity for years. We should not reward him with a second year if he doesn't win . That's all.

So you are effectively basing your decision on one referring mistake, a deflected goal, a sending off, inside/outside of the post etc on one game of 90 mins of football? I get you want to see a tangible return but 90 mins of football shouldn’t be the barometer used to judge him. Either you want him out or to stay. One off games are one off games.

Anzac

Klaus wrote:
GooneriC wrote:
He has to win the Europa , otherwise he should be sacked.

I hope he leaves either way. You can tell from a mile away that he's not going to be a good long-term option for a club that needs to rediscover an identity and develop young players. You could tell with van Gaal and Mourinho at Manchester United too, and their failure to kick them out the door after their first seasons of horror football brought on their years in the wilderness as much as anything else. Every season where we hold off looking for someone better suited to the job is one that is going to be wasted. We've already lost a year where we should have been focusing on bringing back a strong core to our football.

All of which starts with the club and not the manager/Head Coach. By going with all the talk from the club and The Ornacle would seem to indicate that core issues with the club re appetite for change and ambition still remain, which would mean that no one is likely to be able to achieve the preferred outcomes on or off the pitch.

Unless Emery is backed in the market to at least build a spine that is fit for purpose, then I very much expect this next season to be his last.

Klaus

Mourinho won trophies and he still kept dragging the club down, yes. It was obvious to see. In 2.5 years he couldn't build anything lasting. Not a single player improved.

When I say that I think we should look for someone more suited to the job I don't mean that we should go and hire Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, or Tony Adams, or whatever half-witted manager flop there might be who's looking for an interim job. I just think Emery's character is all wrong. Look for someone with better traits. And if we don't get it right the next time either we should keep trying. If it were an easy job anyone could do it. The very fact that it's not easy is why it feels naïve to just assume that we got the appointment right the first time, contrary to a year's worth of evidence.

Klaus

Anzac wrote:
Klaus wrote:
I hope he leaves either way. You can tell from a mile away that he's not going to be a good long-term option for a club that needs to rediscover an identity and develop young players. You could tell with van Gaal and Mourinho at Manchester United too, and their failure to kick them out the door after their first seasons of horror football brought on their years in the wilderness as much as anything else. Every season where we hold off looking for someone better suited to the job is one that is going to be wasted. We've already lost a year where we should have been focusing on bringing back a strong core to our football.

All of which starts with the club and not the manager/Head Coach.

No, I don't think so. It starts with them in the sense that they're the ones appointing the manager. In every other sense it's on the person in charge of the actual team.

Bold Tone

Ricky1985 wrote:
We haven't played 3-4-1-2 though. That implies we have played with wide midfielders in an attacking set-up.

It would be more accurate to describe our formation as: 5-2-1-2 . Where we have played with 5 defenders and 2 holding midfielders most of the time. Hence the creatively barren football.

Players make formations really. I would only ever personally want to see any formation involving 3 at the back when the two wide players are attackers first. As part of a system that is designed to play on the front foot, high up the pitch, with real width from said wide players. Set up to dominate.

The novelty 5-2-1-2 is painfully true, sadly.
e: On a more general note, were we playing a pressing game after November last year?
I do not think there were many signs of player fatigue.
Our biggest loss was Ramsey getting injured towards the end but that has been a normal recurrence year in year out.
Only thing i can remember is the high line which Wenger also played and presented it's usual set of problems.

Gazza M

Klaus wrote:
GooneriC wrote:
He has to win the Europa , otherwise he should be sacked.

I hope he leaves either way. You can tell from a mile away that he's not going to be a good long-term option for a club that needs to rediscover an identity and develop young players. You could tell with van Gaal and Mourinho at Manchester United too, and their failure to kick them out the door after their first seasons of horror football brought on their years in the wilderness as much as anything else. Every season where we hold off looking for someone better suited to the job is one that is going to be wasted. We've already lost a year where we should have been focusing on bringing back a strong core to our football.

i don't disagree. he's the guy that can get us CL football, but that's his ceiling. he isn't the guy that will build us into a champion team capable of worrying the likes of liverpool and city. i've felt that from the day we hired him.

unfortunately given the history of the clubs owners, we know that as long as we get CL football, he'll keep his job

flobaba

Klaus wrote:
Mourinho won trophies and he still kept dragging the club down, yes. It was obvious to see. In 2.5 years he couldn't build anything lasting. Not a single player improved.

When I say that I think we should look for someone more suited to the job I don't mean that we should go and hire Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, or Tony Adams, or whatever half-witted manager flop there might be who's looking for an interim job. I just think Emery's character is all wrong. Look for someone with better traits. And if we don't get it right the next time either we should keep trying. If it were an easy job anyone could do it. The very fact that it's not easy is why it feels naïve to just assume that we got the appointment right the first time, contrary to a year's worth of evidence.

What sort of traits would these be? What sort of character would you be looking at? It seems like such a vague term.

And why do you assume we have got it wrong in his first season? Pep would’ve been fired by that metric, and even he had to spend a gazillion pounds before he got the players he wanted. We couldn’t even afford loan deals...

Bold Tone

Pep is a poor example as he showed lots of traits leaning towards improvement from Pellegrini's dire tactics in his first season.

Gazza M

pep and klopp both had a nicer resume than emery as well in terms of competing at the highest levels, and a record of developing youthful teams with strong identities. emery is still an unknown quantity in that respect, and the one stint he had at the top level isn't favourable, although i don't hold that against him too much

Klaus

flobaba wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Mourinho won trophies and he still kept dragging the club down, yes. It was obvious to see. In 2.5 years he couldn't build anything lasting. Not a single player improved.

When I say that I think we should look for someone more suited to the job I don't mean that we should go and hire Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, or Tony Adams, or whatever half-witted manager flop there might be who's looking for an interim job. I just think Emery's character is all wrong. Look for someone with better traits. And if we don't get it right the next time either we should keep trying. If it were an easy job anyone could do it. The very fact that it's not easy is why it feels naïve to just assume that we got the appointment right the first time, contrary to a year's worth of evidence.

What sort of traits would these be?

I literally just named them.

Jed

Klaus wrote:
Mourinho won trophies and he still kept dragging the club down, yes. It was obvious to see. In 2.5 years he couldn't build anything lasting. Not a single player improved.

When I say that I think we should look for someone more suited to the job I don't mean that we should go and hire Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, or Tony Adams, or whatever half-witted manager flop there might be who's looking for an interim job. I just think Emery's character is all wrong. Look for someone with better traits. And if we don't get it right the next time either we should keep trying. If it were an easy job anyone could do it. The very fact that it's not easy is why it feels naïve to just assume that we got the appointment right the first time, contrary to a year's worth of evidence.

That's what Man Utd have been doing and look where they are.

Klaus

It's also what Spurs and Liverpool did and look where they are. The point is precisely that - it matters who you appoint. United aren't shite because they didn't stick with van Gaal's soul-destroying football. They're shite because they had an opportunity to hire someone with real long-term vision, and instead they went for a shortsighted has-been who ends up wrecking every club he manages.

BWoolley

I think we got the wrong DoF in Sanllehi. We are closer to Dortmund than Barcelona and needed someone who thinks along those lines. I suspect the decision to hire Emery and some of the signings we have made is driven by Sanllehi's bias to buying "ready" players which he has downgraded a level to account for the difference between us and his former home. I suspect the mentality that we all refer to here of buying young players and trying to find the next Coutinho / Bale to push our spending up a level and properly compete doesn't exist within the club and we are paying the price for that. Similarly, I suspect the attitude of bringing in a young, modern manager even if he hasn't managed a "top tier" club before doesn't exist and we will see journeymen like Emery come and go till Sanllehi leaves. It's similar to how Allardyce, Pardew, Hughes, etc. keep doing the rounds because some clubs can't see past them. In hindsight, that's the decision that is pushing us down this path and the only person who can change that is Josh Kroenke.

RC8

Gazza M wrote:
pep and klopp both had a nicer resume than emery as well in terms of competing at the highest levels, and a record of developing youthful teams with strong identities. emery is still an unknown quantity in that respect, and the one stint he had at the top level isn't favourable, although i don't hold that against him too much

It's worth keeping in mind that Klopp's first season ended with Liverpool in 8th place and beaten convincingly by Emery's Sevilla in the Europa League final. Klopp's second season was not much better than the one we've just had, finishing with 76 points and trophy-less... and he followed that one up with another mediocre league season finishing with 75 points and trophy-less (albeit with a CL final).

Emery led Valencia to 6th in his first season, and then delivered 3 consecutive third-place finishes while having every asset sold. This was a very impressive achievement at the time for those who were paying attention.

Emery's PSG outplayed us, Real Madrid, and Barcelona on different occasions, and tbf they were robbed of making more of it. His record overall at PSG was not bad, especially in his second season (where they won the French quadruple). Tuchel, in comparison, only managed to win the league and nothing else (whilst getting knocked out at the same stage of the CL).

I am not sure whether Emery will be a long-term solution at Arsenal or not, but our record in big games this season is encouraging enough for me to think that we owe him (and most importantly, ourselves) a second season to find out.

jones

RC8 wrote:
Gazza M wrote:
pep and klopp both had a nicer resume than emery as well in terms of competing at the highest levels, and a record of developing youthful teams with strong identities. emery is still an unknown quantity in that respect, and the one stint he had at the top level isn't favourable, although i don't hold that against him too much

It's worth keeping in mind that Klopp's first season ended with Liverpool in 8th place and beaten convincingly by Emery's Sevilla in the Europa League final. Klopp's second season was not much better than the one we've just had, finishing with 76 points and trophy-less... and he followed that one up with another mediocre league season finishing with 75 points and trophy-less (albeit with a CL final).

Emery led Valencia to 6th in his first season, and then delivered 3 consecutive third-place finishes while having every asset sold. This was a very impressive achievement at the time for those who were paying attention.

Emery's PSG outplayed us, Real Madrid, and Barcelona on different occasions, and tbf they were robbed of making more of it. His record overall at PSG was not bad, especially in his second season (where they won the French quadruple). Tuchel, in comparison, only managed to win the league and nothing else (whilst getting knocked out at the same stage of the CL).

I am not sure whether Emery will be a long-term solution at Arsenal or not, but our record in big games this season is encouraging enough for me to think that we owe him (and most importantly, ourselves) a second season to find out.

Good post. Anyone thinking Pep and Klopp looked any better in their first seasons is fooling themselves, how could anyone forget so quickly all the bald fraud memes about Pep and how England broke him ffs. There were barely any traits of his brand of football, how could there be with Sagna, Fernando Wilfried Bony or Joe Hart in the team.

Also Emery brought through plenty of talent from the academies he worked with, now we're just making stuff up. However it's much easier to integrate kids if you have Valencia's or PSG's youngsters coming up and not our usual Akpoms and Afobes.

Also worth noting about his Valencia spell is how they dropped deep into mid table when they sacked him (to be replaced by Pellegrino by all people, one of the worst coaches ever)

Bold Tone

That's your opinion.
I think they both looked better than we did this season.
I could see the direction and progression from the mess Pellegrini left city with yaya strolling about in midfield to the joke of a side Brenton had turned pool into.
I also don't give as much credit to city and psg records due to the petro-dollars signings as you do.
They are the only 2 clubs that would do the below
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/08/03/psg-announce-signing-neymar-barcelona-finally-bow-198m-cheque/

Jed

Klaus wrote:
It's also what Spurs and Liverpool did and look where they are. The point is precisely that - it matters who you appoint. United aren't shite because they didn't stick with van Gaal's soul-destroying football. They're shite because they had an opportunity to hire someone with real long-term vision, and instead they went for a shortsighted has-been who ends up wrecking every club he manages.

I just think you're being way too harsh wanting him gone at the end of this season (especially if he wins us the Europa League, a feat no one else ever managed for us). He deserves at least one more season to show what he can do after getting a full season under his belt in the Premier League. What you're referring to is the scattergun approach and that's rarely successful. You cite Liverpool and Spurs as examples fair enough but Klopp and Pochettino were hardly instant successes. The greatest manager in football history (Fergie) took 4 or 5 years to get going at Utd. We're in no position to fire and hire managers every season as well (factor in hefty payoffs); it's not as if we haven't got the stingiest owner around.

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