Tony Montana wrote:

"African names have too many vowels"

I have actually heard that it’s a common joke /truism in recruiting circles.

Side bar: True story, I have had to amend my name (twice) into one more convenient for the European / American palate - and even then it still often gets miscalled and misspelled.

Damon like most men just don’t get it, and probably never will.

Don’t know if we can ever truly get it, Flobaba

I don’t think so either, but we must try to empathize. My wife has come home frustrated a few times with the whole situation. In her words: "May you never know what it’s like to be a black woman in America”

I just shut up, listen to her, hold her.

Hearing Damon essentially say it’s okay to hit a woman’s backside? That’s groping, no less. The sense of entitlement is appalling. Long way to go, but I’m glad these conversations are being had and being heard. About damn time.

arsedoc md wrote:

Daz wrote:

No it's about him complaining that we aren't talking enough about the men who don't engage in inappropriate/illegal behaviour.

just checked the whole 16 min interview-which I hadn't before and only got the paragraph about the spectrum and scale- and I agree it was an unnecessary mention.  He was probably trying to bat for the movie industry a bit more than complaining as you say.
I don't see anything wrong with what he said before that.

It's unnecessary to explain to a women that touching her ass is not the equivalent of rape, or on a par with rape.
We f****** know that.

It is necessary to explain to Damon that touching a woman's ass is still a big deal.
I'm going to keep repeating this in relation to the relative seriousness of groping,.

"When people talk about a sliding scale consider that the acts that are being classified all involve the infliction of physical or emotional pain, most times both, these acts then provoke feelings of fear, hurt, humiliation, shame, doubt, revulsion and loathing in the person on the receiving end."

flobaba wrote:

Tony Montana wrote:

"African names have too many vowels"

I have actually heard that it’s a common joke /truism in recruiting circles.

Side bar: True story, I have had to amend my name (twice) into one more convenient for the European / American palate - and even then it still often gets miscalled and misspelled.

You mean amending the pronunciation or the spelling? I can understand the former (doing it myself to accommodate these less eloquent pale heathen tongues) but fuck changing my name for others' convenience, might as well call myself Toby and be done with it. Not attacking you or anything btw, it's just the first time I'm hearing someone go to these lengths

arsedoc md wrote:

flobaba wrote:

Hearing Damon essentially say it’s okay to hit a woman’s backside? That’s groping, no less. 

He categorically said they're both terrible.  And should be condemned and rooted out.  

What he said was that groping and rape should not be conflated, he did not categorically say that groping should be "condemned"  or that it was "terrible" - not according to this quote anyway.

"I do believe that there’s a spectrum of behaviour,” he said. “And we’re going to have to figure — you know, there’s a difference between, you know, patting someone on the butt and rape or child molestation, right? Both of those behaviours need to be confronted and eradicated without question, but they shouldn’t be conflated, right?”

Again, no woman in her right mind is going to conflate rape and groping.
No woman needs Damon to explain that there's a difference.
Saying that they should not be conflated is his backhanded way of lessening the seriousness of serial groping, sure it's not rape so don't get so get up about it girls.

I'm going to keep repeating this in relation to the relative seriousness of groping as it appears that it is being ignored in your exchanges.

"When people talk about a sliding scale consider that the acts that are being classified all involve the infliction of physical or emotional pain, most times both, these acts then provoke feelings of fear, hurt, humiliation, shame, doubt, revulsion and loathing in the person on the receiving end."

It's a bit typical for these blokes that they can't just shut up and listen. They really think their opinion is that important. Damon is probably the worst person to muse about the subject too. Not only has he allegedly killed stories about Harvey Weinstein in the past, he and Ben Affleck made sure to discredit and silence any questions about Casey Affleck last award season.

y va marquer wrote:

arsedoc md wrote:

just checked the whole 16 min interview-which I hadn't before and only got the paragraph about the spectrum and scale- and I agree it was an unnecessary mention.  He was probably trying to bat for the movie industry a bit more than complaining as you say.
I don't see anything wrong with what he said before that.

It's unnecessary to explain to a women that touching her ass is not the equivalent of rape, or on a par with rape.
We f****** know that.

It is necessary to explain to Damon that touching a woman's ass is still a big deal.
I'm going to keep repeating this in relation to the relative seriousness of groping,.

"When people talk about a sliding scale consider that the acts that are being classified all involve the infliction of physical or emotional pain, most times both, these acts then provoke feelings of fear, hurt, humiliation, shame, doubt, revulsion and loathing in the person on the receiving end."

It's a very big deal! It's essentially the first step - thinking you can go ahead and invade another person's personal space willy nilly. What nonsense. What do you think that kind of man or person will think they can get away with next? 

The world's kinda full of guys who deeply feel like "they're one of the good guys" even though they're not, really. Damon sounds like another one of them.

I think I might be one of them myself. Without saying every guy should permanently don a hair shirt, there is a level of critical self-examination and vigilance against rationalising poor conduct that you have to work at over time.

Talking to ex-girlfriends and other women in your life about how they felt about particular moments is a worthwhile exercise.

Considered rational comment on where we are and how to move forward 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/02/18/this-website-names-and-shames-companies-with-all-male-boards/

Didn't realise Ireland and the US are that far behind.

Burnwinter wrote:

The world's kinda full of guys who deeply feel like "they're one of the good guys" even though they're not, really. Damon sounds like another one of them.

I think I might be one of them myself. Without saying every guy should permanently don a hair shirt, there is a level of critical self-examination and vigilance against rationalising poor conduct that you have to work at over time.

Talking to ex-girlfriends and other women in your life about how they felt about particular moments is a worthwhile exercise.

Pretty much why I choose to read this thread rather than contribute my opinion as I feel that my lack of experience just doesn't give me the perspective to give an informed opinion

I don't think Matt Damon is trying to do any harm, I just don't think he gets it

Which when he is speaking as if he does know what he's talking about, could be seen as harmful.

I think the debate about what he's saying might be productive, though. The way these things play out is complex.

Y, may I ask this. If the people or person who wronged you wanted to reconcile or apologize and have that conversation with you, would you be open to talking with them? Or is it still too painful - which is understandable of course.

y va marquer wrote:

Considered rational comment on where we are and how to move forward 

This was interesting, thanks. It's always good to see arguments like the one Perel makes here about corporal punishment—the best reason to be optimistic about social change is that it's always happened in the past. Things can get better.

flobaba wrote:

Y, may I ask this. If the people or person who wronged you wanted to reconcile or apologize and have that conversation with you, would you be open to talking with them? Or is it still too painful - which is understandable of course.

I would be open to talking to them, yes.
I admit, that in the case of the guy who molested me when I was 12, I would be nautious in his presence.
It would be a struggle not to throw up.
I'm pretty sure that conversation will never happen.

That’s awfully gracious of you. Thank you

Gotta admit I was disappointed to hear about Franco. Been a fan since Freaks and Geeks and always admired his do different things because you can response to fame but even he's looking like he's a scumbag now. And then to add insult to injury I'm a big fan of Seth Myers and he had him on his show since and softballed Franco on the issue. It's really disappointing because I thought Seth did a great job at the globes, even pushing the crowd with jokes about Weinstein and Spacey that the crowd didn't like.

I think Seth handled that part of the interview just about as well as he could in the context of a light entertainment show, it isn't really a forum suited to grilling guests.
To me it appeared that he genuinely wanted to do the right thing and ask the questions, but he looked awkward when they were being answered and was reluctant to push further.
As for Franco's response: he said he is going to hold back things he could say, that he's not going to actively refute the allegations because he believes enough in what is happening in the #metoo movement.
I'm paraphrasing here but he is saying if taking a knock personally is the price of allowing voices be heard then he will take that knock.

I believe the accusations made against Franco, who was hands down my favourite actor, I had been put off of him ages ago when there was all of that online business with the 17 year old girl.
His behaviour is that of a man who cannot control his urges, uses his fame to indulge himself in situations where he contrived to make women vulnerable.

This particular case does highlight again the vacuum that can exist once accusations are made, in the absence of legal action and a court hearing, who decides on how women deal with or resolve the issues going forward.
Is the telling of the story in itself enough?

I suppose Seth was in a bit of a no win situation. I found Francos "i could tell you why I'm innocent but I won't" thing to be pretty disingenuous. Innocent men should prove their innocence, the ambiguity of his non-statement casts doubt and doubt is more damaging than proving false accusations to be lies.

This also feels like its being treated as a much smaller story than some of the first revelations. Are the media getting bored with #metoo already?

I'm not sure that it's a case of the media getting bored with #metoo.

The problem as I see it is that reactions will be subjective and linked to the public perception of the accused.
So far the men who have been accused have been Trump, other politicians (never really popular figures) or older men like Weinstein, Spacy.

Younger men, popular actors with looks and charisma, have so far not really been amongst those accused.
Franco's the first high profile one (that I can think of) and what seems to be happening in his case is that his looks, charisma and his stated willingness to examine his behaviour and mend his ways are playing in his favour
It's that superficial.
Unless the women take this further I think this will evaporate over time.

It's happened before, Micheal Fassbender was accused of a serious physical assault on a girlfriend - this never became big news and has pretty much been erased from public consciousness.

I'm not saying that there isn't space for people to admit the wrong they've done, apologise, show remorse, repair the hurt and damage, forgiveness granted and everyone moves on.
However when there is a pattern of behaviour, denials, no remorse and the hurt inflicted gets ignored and forgotten then that is wrong and can't be accepted.

Eliza Dushku has just written a harrowing account of being raped or sexually assaulted by a stunt coordinator who worked with her on True Lies when she was 12.

The guy, Joel Kramer, is still working regularly and contributed to Blade Runner 2049.

Full account here:

The part about him sabotaging her stunt equipment as revenge is almost as horrific.

Jesus. Reading that turns my stomach, 12 years old, poor girl.

arsedoc md wrote:

Aziz Ansari next up.

Thats a really tricky one. He seems like a total creep but I'm not sure in this story he ever really crosses the line into assault. I think anyone who really fell for Ansaris to me quite blatantly performative progressivism wasn't paying enough attention too.

This is all getting way out of hand. Women don't have some god given right to not get hurt, or to not have to feel shame or embarrassment. Bunch of entitled assholes. The Dushku account is the real shit that happens in this fucked up world. Ansari's date doesn't exist in the same bloody universe, let alone the same forum thread.

Coombs wrote:

This is all getting way out of hand. Women don't have some god given right to not get hurt, or to not have to feel shame or embarrassment. Bunch of entitled assholes. The Dushku account is the real shit that happens in this fucked up world. Ansari's date doesn't exist in the same bloody universe, let alone the same forum thread.

WTF? :brow:

Coombs wrote:

This is all getting way out of hand. Women don't have some god given right to not get hurt, or to not have to feel shame or embarrassment. Bunch of entitled assholes. The Dushku account is the real shit that happens in this fucked up world. Ansari's date doesn't exist in the same bloody universe, let alone the same forum thread.

ive seen a lot of bad takes on a lot of subjects over the years, but this one is at the top of the list. maybe you just blacked out for a second and your brain malfunctioned. if so, by all means, edit the post and wipe it all out.

I'm sure Coombs is being sarcastic. At least I hope he is.

y va marquer wrote:

Considered rational comment on where we are and how to move forward 

I really think this is worth listening to if you haven't already done so.
Getting on some kind of war footing is not going to help any of us.

Personally I think the account in that article tells you everything you need to know about what kind of person Ansari is, the manipulating little shit. All guys know when a woman doesn't want it. Everyone who tells you differently is blatantly lying.

To keep following her around the room, physically blocking her off while trying to shove his fingers down her throat and her panties after she tells him she's uncomfortable crosses every line there is. There's a widespread idea that if guys keep pushing, if they just keep insisting and touching and kissing, they'll eventually get their way, and it's really ugly to me. Consent is not something you coax out of someone, nor is it automatically given unless it's loudly denied. You don't behave this way if you're the least concerned about the other person in the room. Guys who say "if this is sexual assault then every relationship I've had has involved sexual assault" (and there have been many of those comments on this story) really need to stop for a moment and think about the implication of what they're saying, and how fucked up it is.

Klaus wrote:

Personally I think the account in that article tells you everything you need to know about what kind of person Ansari is, the manipulating little shit. All guys know when a woman doesn't want it. Everyone who tells you differently is blatantly lying.

To keep following her around the room, physically blocking her off while trying to shove his fingers down her throat and her panties after she tells him she's uncomfortable crosses every line there is. There's a widespread idea that if guys keep pushing, if they just keep insisting and touching and kissing, they'll eventually get their way, and it's really ugly to me. Consent is not something you coax out of someone, nor is it automatically given unless it's loudly denied. You don't behave this way if you're the least concerned about the other person in the room. Guys who say "if this is sexual assault then every relationship I've had has involved sexual assault" (and there have been many of those comments on this story) really need to stop for a moment and think about the implication of what they're saying, and how fucked up it is.

The Ansari case is quite different from Weinstein and Spacey for exactly that reason and that's why you will find a lot of people confused by this because it cuts close to home. It's quite rare to see someone wank themselves off into a potted plant in front of company so it's easy to be revolted and push back against Harvey Weinstein but this encounter is much closer to the norm and harder to brush off as entitled, rich old men.

From Ansari's perspective, he may well have missed all those signals which makes it all the more important to have this discussion but I'm not comfortable with condemning him out right just yet.

Isn't the Aziz Ansari from a completely unverified anonymous source?