Mirth wrote:
Clrnc wrote:

That's an interesting line of thinking, but honestly which coach can make Lacazette or Ramsey etc to have more natural ability to compete against Kane and Dele Alli? They might be somewhat more efficient in a cohesive team, but probably not better individual players per se. And we have too many flawed players that is either not good enough or injury prone

I haven't seen of Lacazette to compare but, having seen Ramsey develop I'd say the reason they're flawed is precisely because of a lack of coaching and guidance instead of ability. Sure, it's hard to sit and say that Ramsey is better than Kane as things stand now but that's at least partly down to how he's been developed imo.

I'm not saying Wenger doesn't do any coaching or ruins all players because he's definitely made Koscielny, Giroud and Monreal better players but those players came to Arsenal with some identity. They had a style of play that was further refined. Meanwhile for a lot of the younger players Wenger's tried to bring through, I honestly feel they lacked proper direction - you can start with Ramsey, Chamberlain and go all the way back to Walcott to see examples of that.

I think it's the team that suffers more than the player individually really. Wenger spoke about the number of times Ramsey was in the box against Swansea and he almost took delight in it. He wants to get the best out of a player by exploiting their strengths at times to the detriment of the team. 

Individuals do well and we overrate them at times. Walcott wasn't a footballer, he had a very decent career at Arsenal. His technique improved manifold. There is a reason Chamberlain can't get into the Liverpool side even with injuries and it's not down to how he was developed here in my opinion.

Qwiss! wrote:
jones wrote:

Seeing that he hasn't what is your explanation for that?

Spurs gonna Spurs.

Well haven't you got the memo, Spurs are League and CL contenders now.

This is not the same Spurs who finished 3rd in a two horse race, who later got one point in four games vs Monaco and fucking Leverkusen, dropped out of Europe vs the mighty Gent and won their last piece of silverware when Kaka was the best player in the world. No, this is a new team who because of their win against a depleted (missing Navas, Kovacic, Bale, Varane and Carvajal) Real who were lucky not to concede five vs Girona couple of days ago are now CL front runners

jones wrote:

Not even targeting Clrnc but I've a feeling this shit is getting worse every matchweek. As soon as one of our rivals has a good result some can't help but fall over wanking themselves to death over rival players or managers.

Sure. I mean, go back to 2010 and half the country throught Aston Villa had the better squad and manager because they were cruising ahead of us for a while. Redknapp's Spurs were supposedly superior too, despite them having a manager who can't read and who had bankrupted all his other clubs.

If this is Spurs's moment of glory then I honestly feel sorry for them. Arsenal right now are as bad as I've ever seen us, and we're still only a point behind in the table.

Re: Alli, his biggest asset—and it's a pretty good one—is his his ability to weasel his way into the box unmarked. He's basically Ramsey without any of the other big pros and cons. He's not an outstanding footballer in any other sense however, and I think history will prove as much. I think he's experiencing the high marks of his career right now. He'll struggle to find a manager who'll shape another team to get the most out of him. A top club like Real (or someone else with more money than sense) will take a punt on him eventually because of the numbers he produces, and then he'll fail miserably to emulate them.

goon wrote:
Clrnc wrote:

some of the shits and finishing he pull out on the pitch is outstanding.

Lineker esque imo. 

😆

Klaus wrote:
jones wrote:

Not even targeting Clrnc but I've a feeling this shit is getting worse every matchweek. As soon as one of our rivals has a good result some can't help but fall over wanking themselves to death over rival players or managers.

Sure. I mean, go back to 2010 and half the country throught Aston Villa had the better squad and manager because they were cruising ahead of us for a while. Redknapp's Spurs were supposedly superior too, despite them having a manager who can't read and who had bankrupted all his other clubs.

Pretty sure no one ever thought Aston Villa was superior at all.

I remember back in those days there was always Walcott vs Bale and Wilshere vs Modric threads. We were all overwhelmingly in favour of our own players. As recently as a year ago some said Giroud was twice the player Kane will ever be. It's tough to discuss about players comparison objectively, and even tougher to see 5 rivals in Europe doing well but we will play Red Star Belgrade later.

Klaus wrote:

Re: Alli, his biggest asset—and it's a pretty good one—is his his ability to weasel his way into the box unmarked. He's basically Ramsey without any of the other big pros and cons. He's not an outstanding footballer in any other sense however, and I think history will prove as much. 

Well said, and a large part of his ability to "weasel" his way in is based on defenders being overly - but rightly - concerned with Kane. Playing alongside a striker who's as in form as Kane is easy, and it's way Eriksen is also looking great.

Look back at how RVP during his peak made the likes of Song, Walcott, and co. all of a sudden look like great players. It was less to do with their individual quality and more with the ability of a single player to lift a team.

Clrnc wrote:

Pretty sure no one ever thought Aston Villa was superior at all.

Nah, back when it looked like they would pip us to a 4th place finish it was a popular belief, especially in English papers. Ashley Young (the guy whose career highlight is eating birdshit) was widely considered being superior to any of our rags. Bloody James Milner was awarded Young Player of the Year over Fabregas, despite Cesc scoring 19 and assisting 20 that season.

People love small teams that are punching above their weight and hate big teams that are underperforming.

I don't think my joke is getting the recognition it deserves.

goon wrote:
goon wrote:

Lineker esque imo. 

😆

😆 

It's funny, unfair that it has gone unnoticed. 

Clrnc wrote:
Klaus wrote:

Sure. I mean, go back to 2010 and half the country throught Aston Villa had the better squad and manager because they were cruising ahead of us for a while. Redknapp's Spurs were supposedly superior too, despite them having a manager who can't read and who had bankrupted all his other clubs.

Pretty sure no one ever thought Aston Villa was superior at all.

I remember back in those days there was always Walcott vs Bale and Wilshere vs Modric threads. We were all overwhelmingly in favour of our own players. As recently as a year ago some said Giroud was twice the player Kane will ever be. It's tough to discuss about players comparison objectively, and even tougher to see 5 rivals in Europe doing well but we will play Red Star Belgrade later.

That's Arsenal fans talking about their own and rival players. Klaus is talking about the general public's perception, where both Villa and Everton have overtaken us at different points, many thought Anderson would be a better footballer than Cesc, Defoe better than RVP (that one was even on AM) and so on. It's not about getting it always right, that cannot be the aim in discussions like these.

There's little objectivity except for hindsight - what can be called objective though is not going into overdrive because of a single match or performance. How many powershifts in London have we witnessed in the last decade (and no doubt many will claim one is occurring as we speak)? How many times were Barcelona/Messi done in Europe? Real have won back to back CL titles five months ago, now we've already witnessed the end of their golden era; all because English teams have for once performed in Europe in the group stages after spending literally billions of pounds.

Even disregarding all of this - just remember how many times clubs were written off/praised to the high heavens before the end of the year. City have won the last six championships by the end of October, Juventus were written off for the past two seasons because of their slow starts and Messi was publicly "flirting" with Chelsea in January 2015 only to win the fucking treble four months later

I think we all desire absolutes in football (e.g. Spurs are shit) when the reality is there are none. Spurs are a good team, in good form that I would argue are being elevated by the right manager for them right now. Madrid have the better players but are in bad form and may not have the right manager to guide them out of this particular situation. Which team is better right now? On paper, Madrid, on the pitch, Spurs. Will it change over the season, possibly, and then we'll all be having a different debate.

goon wrote:

I don't think my joke is getting the recognition it deserves.

Decent. It didn’t register cos I had to google it - my first conscious World Cup was 94.

Couldn’t will myself to watch the video results though.

SimplyThePest wrote:

I think we all desire absolutes in football (e.g. Spurs are shit) when the reality is there are none. Spurs are a good team, in good form that I would argue are being elevated by the right manager for them right now. Madrid have the better players but are in bad form and may not have the right manager to guide them out of this particular situation. Which team is better right now? On paper, Madrid, on the pitch, Spurs. Will it change over the season, possibly, and then we'll all be having a different debate.

Spurs won a match against Real. That doesn't make them better than them right now any more than us winning the FA cup didn't make us better than Chelsea last season. Spurs league form is just as bad as Reals.

17 days later

Sprs beating Dortmund away, Liverpool beating Sevilla. Feels like everyone but us is having a great time in Europe while we stumble to a great 0-0 against the mighty Red Star Belgrade. Hope Sprs get mauled in the next round. As for us, Dortmund and Napoli dropping down means we can bid goodbye to this Thursday night rubbish soon hopefully.

At least Liverpool delivered their usual comedy. Sp*rs though 🙁

Good grief you're so miserable it's painful to read. Lighten up ffs.

How do you feel about your boy Harry Kane scoring, jones?

;D

Lol, you lot. English clubs are owning this cup.
I just pray that Continental clubs get their shot together. The thought of Spurs or City going past us to win this cup...