Tony Montana wrote:
Klaus wrote:

How many Serie A games have you watched this season, Tony? How many did you watch last season? It's a genuine question. I'm interested to hear the answer because you make very strong claims that doesn't correspond to the actual state of things.

I have only seen a few games.

But i'm talking about the CL though. And let's be honest, english teams have done better against italians than vice versa when plaing each other.

And Italian teams have won the tournament twice in the last four years. English teams have won it once. The Italian players won the World Cup in -06. The English players weren't even close, for all their supposed superiority.

Serie A is not as competitive as Premier League but the top players would raise hell in England too if given the opportunity. You can't judge an entire league based on a one-off game or a few comments you've read on an English forum, and you can't judge the strength of a team based on how they perform when they miss half a dozen key players.

I remember everyone on A-M clamouring for us to copy Milan's methods and invest heavily like they have in a more scientific approach to injury prevention. Where's the famous "Milan lab" now? They have injury on injury, and it can't all be down to old age.

It's a combination of squad size and age. The height of Milan lab coincided with deep, younger teams.

Look at Arsenal for example... if we had someone who could reliably fill in for Nasri tomorrow, we probably would not risk him against Barca. It's one thing to diagnose injury and likelihood of injury; it's another to act on that advice if you do not have sufficient personnel.

Klaus wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:

I have only seen a few games.

But i'm talking about the CL though. And let's be honest, english teams have done better against italians than vice versa when plaing each other.

And Italian teams have won the tournament twice in the last four years. English teams have won it once. The Italian players won the World Cup in -06. The English players weren't even close, for all their supposed superiority.

Serie A is not as competitive as Premier League but the top players would raise hell in England too if given the opportunity. You can't judge an entire league based on a one-off game or a few comments you've read on an English forum, and you can't judge the strength of a team based on how they perform when they miss half a dozen key players.

I'm talking about the club game as I mentioned earlier, not the National team.

I'm talking about English league players not English players.

And English teams v Italian teams since 2000 favours English teams in wins.

Spurs were missing players as well, and if Milan are better than Spurs, then any first teamer not playing for Spurs is a big deal.

Ricky: Preventing injuries isn't their only function though. They keep track of each individual player on a weekly basis and develop personal training methods to specifically enhance certain technical attributes by optimizing the training of the concerned muscle groups. Player by player Milan have been the fittest team in the world for over a decade. The fact that they break down a lot nowadays is down to Berlusconi more than anyone else. Since he started to cheapskate through the league they've introduced very few new players in the team while growing overly reliant on aging ones.

Tony Montana wrote:

I'm talking about the club game as I mentioned earlier, not the National team.

No, you were talking about players in Serie A versus those who play in English clubs. Every single player in Italy's world cup winning squad played in Serie A, thus making it a relevant point.

Tony Montana wrote:

And English teams v Italian teams since 2000 favours English teams in wins.

Maybe. I haven't looked it up so I won't argue, but it doesn't mean anything else than what you just wrote: that English teams have won more games against Italian ones during the last decade than vice versa.

Tony Montana wrote:

Spurs were missing players as well, and if Milan are better than Spurs, then any first teamer not playing for Spurs is a big deal.

Spurs were only missing Modric and Bale that could be considered regulars.

It does suggest that the overall quality of the Premier League is still as high as it was 3 or 4 seasons ago. Makes a bit of a mockery of the idea that standards have dropped over here.

Ricky1985 wrote:

I remember everyone on A-M clamouring for us to copy Milan's methods and invest heavily like they have in a more scientific approach to injury prevention. Where's the famous "Milan lab" now? They have injury on injury, and it can't all be down to old age.

Thought the 'milan lab' got exposed as a myth a while ago. Can't remember the story or where I read it but I have a vague recollection of somebody 'outing' them.

Klaus wrote:

Ricky: Preventing injuries isn't their only function though. They keep track of each individual player on a weekly basis and develop personal training methods to specifically enhance certain technical attributes by optimizing the training of the concerned muscle groups. Player by player Milan have been the fittest team in the world for over a decade. The fact that they break down a lot nowadays is down to Berlusconi more than anyone else. Since he started to cheapskate through the league they've introduced very few new players in the team while growing overly reliant on aging ones.

Tony Montana wrote:

I'm talking about the club game as I mentioned earlier, not the National team.

No, you were talking about players in Serie A versus those who play in English clubs. Every single player in Italy's world cup winning squad played in Serie A, thus making it a relevant point.

Sure, but when these players play for their clubs, many along with foreigners, they are found wanting against English teams. Look, they're not terrible but it's basically Milan that have been the best. Even Inter last year won with essentially no or just one Italian player (although that's not my original point). It was piss easy for United last season and Spurs beat them this year. Honestly would you be worried even playing Inter?

Klaus wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:

And English teams v Italian teams since 2000 favours English teams in wins.

Maybe. I haven't looked it up so I won't argue, but it doesn't mean anything else than what you just wrote: that English teams have won more games against Italian ones during the last decade than vice versa.

Yeah but what do you think is the reason for that? I say it's because English teams are stronger and faster...more intense.

Klaus wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:

Spurs were missing players as well, and if Milan are better than Spurs, then any first teamer not playing for Spurs is a big deal.

Spurs were only missing Modric and Bale that could be considered regulars.

Exactly. Throw in Hutton, King, Huddlestone and few others. But if Milan are better surely this would have harmed Spurs quite a lot. Missing Bale for them would be big.

Tony Montana wrote:

Honestly would you be worried even playing Inter?

Since Leonardo took over? Very worried. Last season when they beat Barcelona? Extremely worried.

Tony Montana wrote:
Klaus wrote:

Maybe. I haven't looked it up so I won't argue, but it doesn't mean anything else than what you just wrote: that English teams have won more games against Italian ones during the last decade than vice versa.

Yeah but what do you think is the reason for that? I say it's because English teams are stronger and faster...more intense.

I don't know why it is. I haven't seen the numbers so it's hard to make any broad claim. Premier League is a stronger league though, I've already admitted as much. That's not what the discussion's about.

I also recall that Milan didn't win Serie A in any of the two seasons when they won Champions League.

Tony Montana wrote:

Exactly. Throw in Hutton, King, Huddlestone and few others. But if Milan are better surely this would have harmed Spurs quite a lot. Missing Bale for them would be big.

No, I don't buy that argument. A football team doesn't work like that. When you're missing top class players it's usually even more noticeable that they're not there. If you're missing half of your starting eleven and a big chunk of your bench you're going to have a hard time against any opponent - especially in Champions League - and that's true for every team in the world.

Klaus wrote:

Milan would've won the game if half of the players they're missing had been available. They played like a sack of shit tonight, though, injuries or no injuries, and didn't deserve anything.

Love Gattuso though. Like James said, what a gooner.

Gattuso's a cock. And Spurs were missing just as many players.

Imagine if they got Schalke/Valencia in the next round. :gah:

Tim wrote:

The Bundesliga is stronger than Serie A right now imo.

In terms of...?

Can't imagine a German team winning the Champions League for a very long time.

Caligula wrote:

As for the English league having more technical players, you'll find that to be untrue if you just watch a random Serie A game this weekend. The players are very technically sound. What they lack, as Daimler noted, is the pace of British football.

i agree with that. just from an aesthetic standpoint, i can't watch a game of football that isnt played at a high pace. world cup? boring. serie a? i've never gotten through more then 15 mins of a match. la liga? snoozefest.

that said, the teams need to be able to play, too. to be honest, i find the vast majority of premier league matches not involving arsenal to be unwatchable.

So basically, you don't really like football very much?

Captain wrote:

So basically, you don't really like football very much?

😆

GaelForce wrote:
Tim wrote:

The Bundesliga is stronger than Serie A right now imo.

In terms of...?

Can't imagine a German team winning the Champions League for a very long time.

In terms of quality and standard of football. And I think you're wrong Gael, there will be an increasing number of german teams going to the latter stages of the Champions League in the next 5-10 years imo.

Klaus wrote:

Ricky: Preventing injuries isn't their only function though. They keep track of each individual player on a weekly basis and develop personal training methods to specifically enhance certain technical attributes by optimizing the training of the concerned muscle groups. Player by player Milan have been the fittest team in the world for over a decade. The fact that they break down a lot nowadays is down to Berlusconi more than anyone else. Since he started to cheapskate through the league they've introduced very few new players in the team while growing overly reliant on aging ones.

Tony Montana wrote:

Spurs were missing players as well, and if Milan are better than Spurs, then any first teamer not playing for Spurs is a big deal.

Spurs were only missing Modric and Bale that could be considered regulars.

Is it really any more advanced than what we do, or other top teams do, though?

I thought Modric came on around the hour mark?

Captain wrote:
Ricky1985 wrote:

I remember everyone on A-M clamouring for us to copy Milan's methods and invest heavily like they have in a more scientific approach to injury prevention. Where's the famous "Milan lab" now? They have injury on injury, and it can't all be down to old age.

Thought the 'milan lab' got exposed as a myth a while ago. Can't remember the story or where I read it but I have a vague recollection of somebody 'outing' them.

Never saw an article or story about that. When you say they were outed, do you mean they were found to be not really doing anything cutting edge or massively different from everyone else?

Captain wrote:

So basically, you don't really like football very much?

hah i thought of that while writing the post, too.

frankly, i don't think the level of play in the european leagues is very high. or at least, it's often not very entertaining to the neutral. i'd prefer watching the better teams in various local amateur leagues in nyc to stoke v blackburn or osasuna v mallorca.

i think there's a lot of blame to go around for that: cowardly/inept managers, impatient clubs, poor training in many parts of the world, corruption in spain/italy, poor refereeing, cultural preferences for slow football in some countries.

Tim wrote:

In terms of quality and standard of football. And I think you're wrong Gael, there will be an increasing number of german teams going to the latter stages of the Champions League in the next 5-10 years imo.

Would be good to see that actually, interested to see how good this Dortmund side are next year too. Would be good for football if the 'German model' led to success, but I just don't see the quality in the league.

But you obviously watch more of the Bundesliga than I do (outside the Champions League I watched a few Bayern games last summer but that was rare), is your prediction based on this generation of young German footballers or a group of underrated players/clubs?

Ricky1985 wrote:

Is it really any more advanced than what we do, or other top teams do, though?

I have no idea, really. It's probably not that different today, but I don't know how the rest of the clubs operate. I just know that Milan Lab base their method upon continuous and meticulous studying of each player individually. I'm sure a lot of people thought they had the recipe to Coca-Cola in their possession but what's made them so effective is nothing that the rest of the world couldn't have done with a bit of money. Instead of hiring osteopaths and chiropractors they've been employing actual research scientists to do a job. It's about expensive medical research and machinery more than anything else.

Captain wrote:

This wasn't the article and it is very anecdotal (but then so are the positives spun) but she highlights some issues here.

http://www.football-italia.net/blogs/sc105.html

Interesting. I will have to find out more about this, and see what I make of it. Right now it looks like a load of rubbish from Milan, serving as little more than good PR.

I would imagine that the level of expertise is more or less the same at all of the big clubs. I'm sure that they all practice both a preventative and treatment based approach to player health.

I remember seeing a documentary on Bolton and even there, with their relatively smaller budget, Fat Sam had introduced a fair amount of science into their fitness regimes (that's why he is always going on about sports psychology and being a pioneer etc.).

Im sure they do. I don't think it's that much different either. What makes Milan superior is the frequency they do it with, the uncompromising attitude and the experience of having done it so long, I guess. It's the small things. I've got an article in a magazine called Offside (it could best be described as the swedish equivalent to L'Equipe) dated back to 2008, I think. They had an extensive look at Milan Lab and talked to a lot of people. It's a really fascinating read.

What the entire thing boils down to is, a lot of injuries just happen and then you need to treat them during the recovery period. You can't really tell whether someone will get on the recieving end of a bad tackle, or whether they'll twist their leg walking down the street, or whether a tendon will snap unless it shows on one of the routine scans. But you can influence the other things. Stuff you usually take for granted. Like body balance, for instance. Or running patterns. They study the way some players kick a ball which might result in long-term complications. They measure the endurance of each active muscle group and then they assign a special training program to the area that is lacking. They look at things that causes unneccessary wear and tear to the body and they try to reduce it.

The results have been good too. Maldini was 40 when he retired, Costacurta 42. Seedorf is 35, just like Nesta. Inzaghi is 37 and was having a wonderful season until that tendon injury came along. Most of the current squad is actually close to or on the wrong side of thirty.

Maximum efficiency for every player would be a good way to describe what they're trying to do, Klaus?

Like I said, I'l have to find out more about it.

Ricky: Yes, that sounds correct.

I think the problem, or one of the problems at least, is that people put faith into things like horse placenta because they don't always like the verdict they get from conventional medicine. Generally, however, the best method of recovery is under controlled conditions with medicine and procedures that have been proven to have a real, tangible effect. Instead of asking why Beckham's achilles went that blog should perhaps be asking: how did they manage to turn a player, who's been slacking it up in MSL for over three years, into one of the best midfielders in Serie A at the age of 35? The tempo in Italy is a little bit slower than in England, but it's not that much slower.

GaelForce wrote:

is your prediction based on this generation of young German footballers or a group of underrated players/clubs?

Yeah, I've watched a fair bit of the league since ESPN picked it up last year. I've generally been really impressed by the standard and quality of football. There's loads of quality young players spread throughout the division and even more coming through by the looks of it.

And the fact that most of the top teams are pretty well off financially means that they should be able to keep their squads together for longer.

they've leapfrogged serie a in terms of uefa coefficients and CL places, havent they?

i just find the southern european leagues too corrupt. it taints everything. barca and madrid basically have the competition rigged financially in their favour with tv rights and gov't favours, and in italy, we know for a fact it was actually rigged. and then all the diving and cheating... i dont have any time for it. mickey mouse leagues, in my opinion. nothing's better than arsenal.

There was absolutely nothing praiseworthy about that tackle.

He was guilty of a couple like that when he was here too.

I watched the first half of the Milan-Tottenham game last night. What a shit game.

How boring and predictable is the 'punt it long to Crouch' tactics? Yet Milan still failed to handle it.

Captain wrote:

There was absolutely nothing praiseworthy about that tackle.

Captainsera Captainsera, What has Don Flamini ever done to make you treat him so disrespectfully? If we'd offered him a new contract in friendship and at the right time, then this scum that wounded Ramsey, that shattered Eduardo, that tried to finish off Diaby- would be suffering this very day. And if by chance an honest club like Arsenal should make enemies, and have cunts constantly whispering about the DNA of their captain, then they would become his enemies- And then they would fear us!!!

Just a thought: I wonder how this team would have evolved if we still had the Flamster gently enforcing our will in the midfield. No room for Denilson definitely, but hows about Wilshere?

Hard to say, since he fucked off and chased the money at Milan, not giving two hoots about Arsenal or his team mates.

😆

Either way that was more of a botched assassination attempt than a tackle.

flobaba wrote:
Captain wrote:

There was absolutely nothing praiseworthy about that tackle.

Captainsera Captainsera, What has Don Flamini ever done to make you treat him so disrespectfully? If we'd offered him a new contract in friendship and at the right time, then this scum that wounded Ramsey, that shattered Eduardo, that tried to finish off Diaby- would be suffering this very day. And if by chance an honest club like Arsenal should make enemies, and have cunts constantly whispering about the DNA of their captain, then they would become his enemies- And then they would fear us!!!

Just a thought: I wonder how this team would have evolved if we still had the Flamster gently enforcing our will in the midfield. No room for Denilson definitely, but hows about Wilshere?

What on earth are you talking about?

Flamini wouldn't even get in to our team any more, even if he was on top form.

Flamini is dead to me. And as Tim says, he's inferior to what each of Jack, Fabregas and Song offer at their respective positions. Jack. Wow.

I don't miss him either. Song is a better player nowadays and he just keeps adding dimensions to his game. I didn't think much of him when we first signed him but his development during the past five years has been astounding.