Manure vs Arsenal Nov 19 2016 Saturday: Page 22 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Manure vs Arsenal Nov 19 2016 Saturday

lorddulaarsenal

Also hate how Wenger acknowledged we were timid against Spurs, says we'll be energetic and forward thinking against United then serves up that dross

Tactics

General wrote:
Well comprehension seems to be a problem here. Jenkinson was taken off because he was poor and offered very little going forward. Not sure how many times you want me to repeat this. Bellerin or another capable right back would not have been subbed. This was a rarity is Wenger's limited tactical repertoire. Also Walcott wasn't having a particularly good game and would've been a prime candidate for replacement if Jenkinson wasn't bolloxed. It's was a measure of how poor he was the a misfiring player like Ox was seen as a credible option at right back.

So let's get this right , in a game where we were a goal down, really had to go for it, nothing to lose, we had taken off our Dm and thus had a very attacking CM, had all our most prolific forwards on the pitch , the most attacking sub you would have made at that point was take off our top goal scorer (a forward ) and replace him with a midfielder who although has scored some goals this season, isn't really known for his goals and keep on a RB who as solid as he was without the ball, wasnt really adding much to our attack?? Do you understand why a lot of people would completely disagree with you here ?

And playing OX at RB isn't that alien an idea, we'vé seen wingers who seem to struggle with decision making thrive more in a full back role as they seem to be much better at making things happen running from deep rather than receiving the ball higher up the pitch and trying to make things happen from there. Valencia who was causing us all sort of problems is a good example of that. We've seen others like Victor Moses, Young, Aleix Vidal etc make similar transition. RB/wing back role is a serious career option for the OX if he fails to progress on the wings IMO.

You seem to be drawing all sort of weird conclusions and using them to criticise Jenkinson. Your point that he was taking off for OX is one of them. So what if a more attacking RB , say Eboue was on the bench, and Jenks was taking off for Eboue like Wenger used to do in the past with Sagna , that would have made his performance all of a sudden much better in your eyes ? Another one of your weird conclusions is your point that Jenks was not targeted because Damian was on a yellow card and was much reserved in his attacking. Two questions here : why didnt they target Jenks from the 1st minute right through Damian's yellow card? And why didn't they do it when Blind (more attack minded , fresher ) came on ? You also don't realise that Damian isn't actually that dynamic fullback ala Shaw , Bellerin etc he's very reserved in his attacking , yet you somehow used that to criticise Jenks 😆

yuv

Haven't read through the thread so I'm not sure what was discussed here, but some basic thoughts:

Said so many times before, and I think yet again we look absolutely spineless without Cazorla. Ozil and Sanchez are not playing well (not for lack of try on Alexis part), and our mid plays latterly and looks pathetic and clueless going forward.

Said before the game I'd rather see Xhaka with coq, and Iwobi on the left despite recent form. It was that obvious we'll be choking - didn't we all know our limitations, even regardless of the manager we were facing?

But I'll take it a step further now: to me till Caz is back we should play
Xhaka-Coq
oz
Theo-Giroud-Alexis.

And while normally i'd say horses for courses, this just looks to me like what we should do in most cases.

Looking forward we should try to look more seriously into making the mid more creative - Santi isn't getting younger, and Xhaka needs to be pushed to deliver. I'm beginning to seriously doubt Ramsey will ever be the answer there.

And as for the back 4 - I had no complaints at all, not even for Jenko. I thought Ramsey was poor, and Neny even poorer. But the poorest performance on the day was Wenger's. Really infuriating. And I don't think Utd were all that... we could have done them even without the missing players.

QuincyAbeyie

What's infuriating is that we have five good CMs and not a single pairing that doesn't include Cazorla seems to work.

General

@[deleted] I'm not going to engage in a merry go round debate with you. You've made your point and I've made mine so I'm going to move on.

Qwiss

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
What's infuriating is that we have five good CMs and not a single pairing that doesn't include Cazorla seems to work.

Thats why I'd like to see Ramsey and Xhaka given a run. We all said in the summer Xhaka might be able to play with Ramsey the way Arteta did yet we haven't had a chance to see how they'd look together. I also think chopping and changing midfield all the time isn't helping. With no senior figure like an Arteta or Santi in there you have to allow these younger guys a chance to figure each other out. I've no doubt if you paired Elneny and Coq for 10 games they'd look a lot better than yesterday too.

Its not just the midfield 2 either. Ozil has to change his game to work with whoevers in there. So far with these mixes of our more deep/defensive mids Ozil hasn't clicked with them. There seems to be a link between the CM and AM missing there and its because they are too far apart and Ozil is in congested spaces with no one coming forward to make room for him.

Whatever the solution Wenger needs to pick his 2 and stick with it for a while. Cazorla doesn't look to be back any time soon so all the chopping and changing has to stop.

General

I've watched the entire game again and we did not play as bad as I thought we did. We lacked cutting edge but we were not getting overwhelmed. The goal was really poor. It came from a throw when we had plenty of men behind the ball and our players switched off one after the other. Monreal slipped and failed to track Herrera who waltzed into the edge of the penalty box unchallenged. He was allowed to send the ball in and too many players were caught ball watching including Walcott who I think was the closest player to Mata. The only other time we came close to conceding in the second half was when Rojo beat Jenkinson to a header at the edge of the box but otherwise we were fairly comfortable. I was annoyed by the amount of space Koscielny gave Rooney when he came on. Mustafi was good and mighty aggressive. Sanchez was good too and all our best work went through him. Ramsey was seriously luck lustre and started hitting some careless balls, one straight out for a throw, after he moved into midfield. I think Wenger has a serious dilemma going forward because Ramsey cannot carry on playing on the wing and he's not technically good enough to be the main ochestrator in midfield.

You wonder what could've been if Wenger has been a bit more proactive with his subs. We probably wouldn't have made the changes and gone for it if we hadn't fallen behind but United had a soft centre which we failed to exploit. Also, I think the ref made a lot of home decisions which slowly tipped the balance in United's favour. Clear foul near on Xhaka on the byline towards the closing stages was waved on and it nearly cost. Overall I don't think he got a lot of calls wrong though. Rightly booked Rooney for being a cunt and Herrera should've gone in the book also. He gets away with far too much the little shit.

General

Gary Neville kept going on about how Sanchez was dropping too deep and Walcott was narrow when we had the ball. I would've thought this was obvious from the way we have played since Sanchez started leading the line. He has clearly been given the freedom to drop, Walcot then goes in to occupy the space he's left behind and in turn Jenkinson pushes up. It's basic tactics and no wonder this clown failed at management. If anything Walcot was too quick to go in and occupy the hole and didn't time it very well. The football is much more enjoyable when you mute the commentary.

Klaus

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
They do. It's about playing you players who are in form. Ramsey needs to be taken out and given time to get fully fit

Yep. Stats aren't a great basis for discussion when you look at them in isolation, but Chambo's 5 goals and 3 assist this season clearly show that he has improved in an area where he used to be weak. They don't show a preference for either flank either; he has scored and assisted from both the right and the left. He should have been in when Iwobi tailed off. We have zero wing play again. We're the only side in the league that doesn't see the point in using the flanks.

Clrnc

General wrote:
I've watched the entire game again and we did not play as bad as I thought we did. We lacked cutting edge but we were not getting overwhelmed. The goal was really poor. It came from a throw when we had plenty of men behind the ball and our players switched off one after the other. Monreal slipped and failed to track Herrera who waltzed into the edge of the penalty box unchallenged. He was allowed to send the ball in and too many players were caught ball watching including Walcott who I think was the closest player to Mata. The only other time we came close to conceding in the second half was when Rojo beat Jenkinson to a header at the edge of the box but otherwise we were fairly comfortable. I was annoyed by the amount of space Koscielny gave Rooney when he came on. Mustafi was good and mighty aggressive. Sanchez was good too and all our best work went through him. Ramsey was seriously luck lustre and started hitting some careless balls, one straight out for a throw, after he moved into midfield. I think Wenger has a serious dilemma going forward because Ramsey cannot carry on playing on the wing and he's not technically good enough to be the main ochestrator in midfield.

You wonder what could've been if Wenger has been a bit more proactive with his subs. We probably wouldn't have made the changes and gone for it if we hadn't fallen behind but United had a soft centre which we failed to exploit. Also, I think the ref made a lot of home decisions which slowly tipped the balance in United's favour. Clear foul near on Xhaka on the byline towards the closing stages was waved on and it nearly cost. Overall I don't think he got a lot of calls wrong though. Rightly booked Rooney for being a cunt and Herrera should've gone in the book also. He gets away with far too much the little shit.

Rewatched it again and thought Marriner had an excellent game. Got all the big decisions right, although Herrera play acting Sanchez into a yellow card was annoying. When the adrenaline is off and you can be calm in watching the match again, you actually gain a lot more insights. Ramsey was even more shocking on 2nd viewing, some of his passes and touches are mind boggling. Mustafi was aggressive but over zealously missed 2 balls that almost costed us.

On their goal, I think Koscielny could have done more to make it harder for Pogba. Walcott was probably at fault for not being alert about Mata.

Tactics

General wrote:
@[deleted] I'm not going to engage in a merry go round debate with you. You've made your point and I've made mine so I'm going to move on.

OK, fair enough 😉

General

Chili Palmer wrote:
General wrote:
We came up against a midfield of Herrera and a 35year old Carrick and still managed to lose control of the midfield.

We had two jokers in midfield, what did you expect? Carrick and Herrera are much better footballers and can actually pass forward unlike our two mugs.

Elneny-Coq has to be up there with the very worst midfield we've had under Wenger. I remember even Denilson absolutely bossing it at OT a couple years ago.

They wouldn't look out of place at some French middle club like Toulouse.

I don't think Carrick and Herrera are much better footballers than Coq-Elneny and I think the pairing has potential. Overall we saw more of the ball even if we didn't do much with it. We set up to contain rather than force the issue and it reflected in the way they played. Wenger clearly didn't want the game to get over stretched and you could say he achieved his objective. I think the other main difference is that we had limited attacking outlets whilst United had a bit more. We had practically zero wing play. Walcot tied himself in all sorts of knots trying to sort his feet out every time he ventured forward and the left flank was non existent.

flobaba

Coq Neny might give you a steady shield for your back 4, but it's only needed against teams that are physically superior. Truth is not many teams can bully us anymore so I find it redundant (especially now we don't need to worry about Merts lack of pace), except as a tactical measure or to rest certain players...

Also it fails to provide us with any attacking impetus whatsoever. These guys are both extremely limited in their vision of the game as well as their ability to execute defence splitting/ tempo increasing passes. Bin it.

yuv

Qwiss! wrote:
I've no doubt if you paired Elneny and Coq for 10 games they'd look a lot better than yesterday too.

They'd probably look a lot better, sure, but I doubt they could really do what we want them to do. These guys will continue to pass it laterally and fail to find the all important vertical move. The Xhaka and Ramsey[size=small] idea has a better chance, though it has other limitations, just because these guys have the ability and will to play it forward.[/size]

Its not just the midfield 2 either. Ozil has to change his game to work with whoevers in there. So far with these mixes of our more deep/defensive mids Ozil hasn't clicked with them. There seems to be a link between the CM and AM missing there and its because they are too far apart and Ozil is in congested spaces with no one coming forward to make room for him.

But it would be smarter to let Ozil (and indeed Sanchez) play their game, and adjust the rest of the team so that we could keep getting the ball to them where they can do their magic. That's exactly where we are at our best. All the talk of Alexis coming deep, Ozil filling for others - but then they don't do what they need to, and, surprise surprise, "we lack penetration", etc.

That is exactly why I was pointing at the Santi effect as so crucial - because he drives moves forward and gets to the crucial 2 in favored positions. That is why I wanted Xhaka, and not Neny to play, and even thought Iwobi would be a good idea. And as long as we don't solve it, might as well play Alexis on the flank - he'll at least help us create, and we'll have Olly to do damage (Sanchez won't be there anyway).

We must start thinking very seriously about replacing Santi. If it's going to be Xhaka, he needs to start playing for it. Otherwise, we might need to buy.

General

Qwiss

Clrnc wrote:
Rewatched it again and thought Marriner had an excellent game. Got all the big decisions right

Even the Darmian tackle on Jenks that should have been a second yellow?

I thought Mariner gave us fuck all apart from the penalty call. Which TBF he got completely wrong as well.

General

Thought it was a pen at first sight. Certainly would've been given when Fergie was there.

y va marquer

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
What's infuriating is that we have five good CMs and not a single pairing that doesn't include Cazorla seems to work.

It seems that way.
I agree with qs in thinking that Wenger needs to just make a decision now on which pairing works best in Cazorla's absence and stick with it.

Haven't a clue which pairing that would be though.

yuv

Xhaka and coq should be the next thing, IMO, as we definitely need passes from deep, and having coq to take the main heavy duty load should enable him more to do the passing. Ramsey and Neny could be options when we need more movement than steel, But I'd still try them all with Xhaka.

When we do play without passes from deep, we should be able to carry the ball forward. When Iwobi was on his game, that was a good bet. If Ramsey ever reappears that could be one as well (and perhaps same with Ox). Otherwise Alexis is just going to come and collect from deep and run it himself, coz he can't spend his entire life waiting for it to get there. And Ozil's going to keep looking like he wished he was somewhere else. That's not where and how we want either.

Clrnc

Qwiss! wrote:
Clrnc wrote:
Rewatched it again and thought Marriner had an excellent game. Got all the big decisions right

Even the Darmian tackle on Jenks that should have been a second yellow?

I thought Mariner gave us fuck all apart from the penalty call. Which TBF he got completely wrong as well.

In big matches referees tend to let that one go if it was in the first half. Seen it time and time again. They don't dare to spoil to spectacle.

I rewatched the pen time and time again and have to admit he was excellent in not giving it. The United player was already falling even before Monreal put his hands out, which in any case was a soft touch and in no way strong enough to bring him down. In real time it looked stonewall but replays were conclusive for me.

« Previous Page Next Page »