The Shopping List—aka We've got flipping great wadges of cash: Page 148 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

The Shopping List—aka We've got flipping great wadges of cash

Klaus

Caligula wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Yeah, it's mental. It makes them a lot harder to transfer too unfortunately.

It's an innovation that allows poor countries to retain / attract top players.

It's an abomination that makes sure only two or three clubs in the world can afford the big south american talents while a consortium of rich investors will bag the transfer fee and only leave breadcrumbs for the clubs that have raised and educated the players.

Captain

What do you mean by the clubs becoming "truly professional" Caligula?

Claudius

There are a number of basic issues in the Brazilian league which are stopping the league from exploding

The biggest problem is the power given to small clubs and the states/counties. This results in Brazilian clubs spending half of their year playing in local leagues. It would be the equivalent of Arsenal spending half the year in the Premier League, and the other half of the year in a competition with Barnet, Dagenham & Redbridge and worse. Lots of money is lost in this process versus if they had a full year of National Championship. There are over 20 such championships, and they are not going away anytime soon because power in the football association is state-based versus being club based. Therefore, each state, especially those with big clubs, is incentivized to hold its own contest.

Basically, until the clubs need to get rid of the state championships, increase the TV money flowing into the game (which would also be a function of, say, a breakaway Premier League), and improve branding. With these advancements, the clubs then might be able to afford big players. For the time being, the only way to afford a good player is to allow someone else to pick up part of the transfer fee and wages.

Basically, the best thing that Corinthians, Santos and the others can do is break away and form a Brazilian premier league that is unhindered by the state championship layer.

Captain

Okay, I know the system there but why is it unprofessional?

Captain

Also, the purchasing of player registrations isn't really happening in relation to buying big players as you imply; the investment groups aren't interested in that because there is barely any money to be made. .

They are buying young players on the way up and siphoning cash out of the game when that player eventually makes the big move to europe. The system will keep a player in Brazil for one, maybe two extra years but the reality is that they are stealing money from the clubs involved.

Claudius

I wouldn't say they are stealing money out of the clubs. The clubs do not have the cash flow to keep these players in Brazil anyway. Rather than lose 17 year olds, Brazil is losing players in their early 20s because venture funds are able to pay the wages for a few years and then cash out. Until Brazilian clubs have the cash flow to finance player salaries, the system works for players, clubs and fans.

Captain

Of course they are stealing money.

Keirrison; seven games played for Palmeiras before his investors shipped him to Barcelona without Palmeiras' management having knowledge of the deal.

Most importantly, Palmeiras could have afforded to buy Keirrison directly from Coritiba before the investors bid more for his registration. It would have cost them around £3-4m pounds and within six months they would have had an asset worth £14m plus they wouldn't have been forced to sell. Instead, they had to loan him and have him sold from under their noses.

End result: £10m pocketed by investors and a young player's career pretty much ruined.

The system clearly doesn't 'work' because the players aren't actually staying in the league. Neymar is pretty much the only example of a player staying in the league while being in massive demand and even he is only 19 (they can't move until they are 18 anyway).

Claudius

It's a combination of young players such as those you've mentioned and veterans that are able to go back such as Ronaldinho and Adriano. Damiao and Lucas are others, and there is still hope that Tevez could join Corinthians.

As for the argument of taking money out of football, if Palmeiras were not meeting Cortiba's price, who's to say that instead of investors someone like Benfica or Porto had come in and met the price. The net result is the same. Cortiba gets paid whether it's by Palmerias, Benfica or venture fund x. I think too much is made of this taking money out of the game. It's a bit like leasing a car. If I can't afford to buy a car, I lease it. In a couple of years, the leasing company sells it, I don't get any money, but I have benefited from using the car. It's the kind of smart financing mechanism that football poorer football teams can use.

I think FIFA should step in and regulate 3rd party ownership. Set up simple rules such as maximum number of owners (to simplify transactions), and require public release of deal details so that we know the ultimate owners and how much they have paid. Let's just say, I have far less of a concern with transparent 3rd party ownership than I do with Citeh and Barcelona having unlimited budgets.

Captain

Those older players aren't being paid or purchased by hedge funds; it's a completely different business model with them because, as I said, there is no money to made there with the investments that we are talking about.

Palmeiras were meeting Cortiba's price; that's the point.

Captain

Caligula wrote:
It's a bit like leasing a car. If I can't afford to buy a car, I lease it. In a couple of years, the leasing company sells it, I don't get any money, but I have benefited from using the car.

You would be mighty pissed if you drove 200 miles away and then the car suddenly disappeared leaving you with no money or transport to get home.

Claudius

Oh, sorry for the misunuderstanding. The third line of your prior post said the investors bid more than Cortiba.

Captain

Yes, they did and that is part of the problem. Artificially raising prices is part of the cycle.

Claudius

Capi, here's something to think about. I'm not putting it forward as a solution, just food for thought.

We talk about money being taken out of football. Football clubs are already doing that on their own without the help of 3rd party owners. Let's look at the Premier League. Each of the 20 clubs is managing a portfolio of players. They pay transfer fees for these players. In the future, they will be able to sell some players for more than what they paid (eg Nasri), but many others will go for free or less than what the club paid (eg Flamini or Eduardo). In general, clubs lose money in transfer fees. In fact, the only club that has consistently been profitable is Arsenal. The others are losing money. So why are football clubs in the business of player trading when it is losing them money? Why don't they just rent players from reputable 3rd parties for a determined, legally enforceable term? Why do Premier League clubs fundamentally need to hold player registrations?*

i say Premier League teams because the equation changes if you are a small team and have a clear business model of developing and selling for profit like an Ajax or Southampton.

lorddulaarsenal

Hazard

Captain

Caligula wrote:
Capi, here's something to think about. I'm not putting it forward as a solution, just food for thought...

Because outside of the premier league, that transfer money stays in the game and filters down the leagues. Third party owners remove the second and sometimes third tier of profitability which is what 'taking money from the game' means.

Claudius

If Wenger could bring in two Bundesliga players out of Reus, Kagawa, Podolski and Goetze, which 2 would you lot want?

lorddulaarsenal

Gotze and podolski

Rex

Agree with Dules.

Klaus

Kagawa and Götze.

Rex

Think we need a striker, so Podolski has to be one of them IMO.

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