Syria and the Middle East News 2016/17: Page 10 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Syria and the Middle East News 2016/17

Big Willie

jones wrote:
Gurgen wrote:
Makes you wonder why Hamas sends those kites to the border, knowing very well what the reaction will be.

What kind of fucked up logic is that? While we're at it why don't we start blaming women for wearing short skirts too because they knew very well what the reaction would be.

Gurg has negative biases against Turk's in particular and Muslims and Islam in general. Given his Armenian roots this is understandable after the atrocities that happened there in the past, but makes me take whatever he says on these topics with a pinch of salt.

Gurgen

Totally 😆

While everyone here of course has extremely positive view on Jews and Israel.

Anyway, I was not blaming the victims but rather the terrorist organisation that willingly sacrifices them for propaganda purposes. Nor did I say that Israel is innocent in this in any way. But I guess people are too radicalised on this topic to have a civilsed conversation about it.

By the way, having a negative view on an ideology is not a 'bias'.

GooneriC

I would blame the terrorist organisation that's doing all the murdering.

Burnwinter

Gurgen wrote:
Anyway, I was not blaming the victims but rather the terrorist organisation that willingly sacrifices them for propaganda purposes. Nor did I say that Israel is innocent in this in any way. But I guess people are too radicalised on this topic to have a civilsed conversation about it.

I think the comparison between Assad and Israel might be the better whataboutery than pretending the threat of Hamas is the pretext for this slaughter.

Trouble is, that'd require the admission that Israel is a quasi-apartheid state that sustains a program of ethnic cleansing, with hundreds of settlements illegally constructed on Palestinian land against international law, land not ceded to Palestinian control that was promised under the Oslo accords, and thousands of Palestinian citizens arbitrarily expelled from East Jerusalem.

And that the only real argument for its continuation is that the alternatives would be disastrous.

We heard the same exonerating Israeli claims about security imperatives back during Protective Edge when a few home-made rockets (and again no / minimal Israeli casualties) supposedly justified over 1000 civilian deaths.

The trouble is there are no neat solutions. There is no two state solution. There is no solution in which Israel continues to exist in its current form. There is no solution in which generations of Israelis give up everything they have. Forced settlement, invasion and colonisation create irreversible contradictions that foreclose the possibility of justice for centuries.

banduan

Gurgen wrote:
Totally 😆

While everyone here of course has extremely positive view on Jews and Israel.

Gurg, this is not the first time you dismiss opinion contrary to yours as slanted.

I don't think anyone here has shown any sort of anti-Semitic leanings.

arsedocmd

Gurgen wrote:
Totally 😆

While everyone here of course has extremely positive view on Jews.

Who has negative view of Jews here?

Coombs

Judaism has as much to do with Israel as Islam does to Palestine in that it might act as fuel for a fire that burns much deeper. It's like a hotspot in geology. It manifests in a fairly precise place, but its source is the molten core of the earth itself.

There are certainly ideologies that rationalize the oppression and the slaughter, but I'm not sure the most powerful or affective are actually religious at all.

y va marquer

Riyad Mansour, Palestine's envoy to the UN, accused Israel of committing "war crimes" against Palestinian protesters in the Gaza Strip, and slammed what he said was the UN Security Council's failure to hold Israel accountable.

"For the past eight weeks, we have begged you to prevent another massacre by Israel, the occupier," he told an emergency session of the UN Security Council.

"Is it possible that you did not hear our calls? Is it possible that you did not take our warnings seriously?"

Calling for a transparent and investigation into the killings along the Israel-Gaza border, he said: "Let us investigate what is happening on the ground. We will accept the outcome of such an investigation."

Arab League calls on ICC to investigate 'Israeli crimes'
The Arab League's Permanent Committee on Human Rights called on the International Criminal Court prosecutor to urgently investigate "the crimes of the Israeli occupation" against Palestinians.

"Israel is an oppressive and murderous entity and its politicians and officers must be taken to the International Criminal Court," Amjad Shamout, the committee's chairman, said in a statement.

Arab League chief Ahmed Abul Gheit condemned the "massacres" of Palestinians, which he said resemble "war crimes".

In a statement he called on the international community to "protect the Palestinian people, who have chosen the path of peaceful struggle and have been confronted with brutality, violence and murder".

ICC prosecutor vows to 'take any action warranted' over Gaza unrest
The chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court said she was watching closely the unrest in Gaza, and would "take any action warranted" to prosecute crimes.

"My staff is vigilantly following developments on the ground and recording any alleged crime that could fall within" the tribunal's jurisdiction, she warned in a statement to AFP news agency.

"The violence must stop," she added.

y va marquer

flobaba

See how the West reacts? Comedy.

Coombs

Wtf is proportionality? It's literally impossible for there to be a "proportional" response, because these are not people coming from anywhere close to equal ground. It's marbles and stones against an advanced military apparatus. Even the odd AK47 is usually just to shoot at the fucking sun, because it does just about as much good.

Burnwinter

Coombs wrote:
Judaism has as much to do with Israel as Islam does to Palestine in that it might act as fuel for a fire that burns much deeper. It's like a hotspot in geology. It manifests in a fairly precise place, but its source is the molten core of the earth itself.

There are certainly ideologies that rationalize the oppression and the slaughter, but I'm not sure the most powerful or affective are actually religious at all.

Shades of Reza Negarestani.

Burnwinter

flobaba wrote:
See how the West reacts? Comedy.

Australia is always absolute rubbish. Craven support for US positions no matter what the significance.

y va marquer

I was taken aback on just how craven the response was.

That said our government's response seems rather superficial

“I am profoundly shocked at the death toll and injuries inflicted on people in Palestine,” said Mr Varadkar.

“The blockade of Gaza is inhumane and must end,” he added.

The Taoiseach said removing the Israeli Ambassador would be met with Ireland’s Ambassador being expelled from the Middle East, effectively shutting down communications between the two countries. He said this would have negative consequences.

“Our view as a government is that you solve conflict with dialogue and dialogue requires engagement and it requires an interlocular.

“We will continue to engage with Israel and Palestine and try to be part of a future peace process.

“We will also act through the UN and we have given our support to the UN secretary general in his call for an independent investigation in to this matter.”

Coombs

Burnwinter wrote:
Coombs wrote:
Judaism has as much to do with Israel as Islam does to Palestine in that it might act as fuel for a fire that burns much deeper. It's like a hotspot in geology. It manifests in a fairly precise place, but its source is the molten core of the earth itself.

There are certainly ideologies that rationalize the oppression and the slaughter, but I'm not sure the most powerful or affective are actually religious at all.

Shades of Reza Negarestani.

:gape:

I've been called many things, but never a realist!

Burnwinter

Your "a fire that burns much deeper … like a hotspot in geology" poetics reminded me of his writing about the subterranean, "poromechanical" character of Middle East politics. Don't ask me if that's a good thing!

banduan

Poromechanical

gawdalmighty

Qwiss

y va marquer wrote:
I was taken aback on just how craven the response was.

That said our government's response seems rather superficial

“I am profoundly shocked at the death toll and injuries inflicted on people in Palestine,” said Mr Varadkar.

“The blockade of Gaza is inhumane and must end,” he added.

The Taoiseach said removing the Israeli Ambassador would be met with Ireland’s Ambassador being expelled from the Middle East, effectively shutting down communications between the two countries. He said this would have negative consequences.

“Our view as a government is that you solve conflict with dialogue and dialogue requires engagement and it requires an interlocular.

“We will continue to engage with Israel and Palestine and try to be part of a future peace process.

“We will also act through the UN and we have given our support to the UN secretary general in his call for an independent investigation in to this matter.”

They've killed our soldiers and forged our passports. They shouldn't have an ambassador here at all.

jones

Well if the whole killing citizens and forging passports thing was so important then they wouldn't have any ambassadors anywhere.

Gurgen

Burnwinter wrote:
Gurgen wrote:
Anyway, I was not blaming the victims but rather the terrorist organisation that willingly sacrifices them for propaganda purposes. Nor did I say that Israel is innocent in this in any way. But I guess people are too radicalised on this topic to have a civilsed conversation about it.

I think the comparison between Assad and Israel might be the better whataboutery than pretending the threat of Hamas is the pretext for this slaughter.

Trouble is, that'd require the admission that Israel is a quasi-apartheid state that sustains a program of ethnic cleansing, with hundreds of settlements illegally constructed on Palestinian land against international law, land not ceded to Palestinian control that was promised under the Oslo accords, and thousands of Palestinian citizens arbitrarily expelled from East Jerusalem.

And that the only real argument for its continuation is that the alternatives would be disastrous.

We heard the same exonerating Israeli claims about security imperatives back during Protective Edge when a few home-made rockets (and again no / minimal Israeli casualties) supposedly justified over 1000 civilian deaths.

The trouble is there are no neat solutions. There is no two state solution. There is no solution in which Israel continues to exist in its current form. There is no solution in which generations of Israelis give up everything they have. Forced settlement, invasion and colonisation create irreversible contradictions that foreclose the possibility of justice for centuries.

It's not whataboutery. Israel killed people which Hamas sent there to be killed. Israel is responsible for killing them and Hamas is responsible for sending them there to be killed. I find it astounding that the conclusion then is that Hamas has done nothing wrong. Just to clarify before there are more bigoted remarks about my objectivity and ethnicity: I am talking about what Hamas does to its own people, not to Israel.

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