Syria and the Middle East News 2016/17: Page 11 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Syria and the Middle East News 2016/17

goon

Hamas didn't exactly tie them up to the fence against their will, nor trick them with promises of candy floss and ice cream. The people were there of their own free will to protest the injustice they feel. The fact that they felt it was worth risking their life to protest should tell it's own story. Focusing on Hamas' role is a frankly absurd attempt to deflect.

Gurgen

arsedoc md wrote:
Gurgen wrote:
Totally 😆

While everyone here of course has extremely positive view on Jews.

Who has negative view of Jews here?

Well some people vote Corbyn..

Gurgen

goon wrote:
Hamas didn't exactly tie them up to the fence against their will, nor trick them with promises of candy floss and ice cream. The people were there of their own free will to protest the injustice they feel. The fact that they felt it was worth risking their life to protest should tell it's own story. Focusing on Hamas' role is frankly absurd attempt to deflect.

They were incited to go there and incited to so armed. This is a verifiable fact. It's quite frankly absurd how easily you believe the propaganda of a terrorist organisation bent on destroying both the Jewish state and its own people in the process.

It's also not an attempt to deflect but I think I will leave that battle for what it is.

jones

Gurgen wrote:
arsedoc md wrote:
Who has negative view of Jews here?

Well some people vote Corbyn..

😆

Is this the Daily Mail comment section?

goon

Wait, so there's no injustice, Palestinians love their life and it's all Hamas propaganda? 😆

I don't like it when people jump on others who try to raise a different perspective (something Corbyn constantly has to deal with) so don't really want to go down this route, but whatever your intentions, you just so happen to be in the sane company as Israel, (i.e. the guys who actually killed the protesters), the US and Australia in citing Hamas in your initial reaction. Three guys who are quite clearly trying to deflect. If anyone is falling for propaganda...

y va marquer

People are jumping on Gurgen, he's being ridiculed and sneered at.
I do see condemnation of the Israeli actions in his posts.
I also see a condemnation of Hamas for directly exposing their own people to the dangers of coming face to face with Israeli soldiers at the border.

It is unjustifiable and immoral for the Israelis to kill those who were protesting, there is no defence for what their soldiers did and will continue to do.
They were not under threat of invasion from an armed force and their premeditated policy was clearly to wipe out protesters in a show of brutality and force.

Gurgen is focusing on the Hamas role here so I suppose my question would be: is it justifiable to encourage people into that situation, knowing that they will be killed for doing so, if the only outcome is that the media gaze is temporarily focused on Gaza and governments across the world will respond based on allegiance and alliance.

Ultimately the situation will either descend into full on war or it dies down until the next atrocity is visited upon people who have zero hope of a better life.

Coombs

Hamas doesn't "send" people out to be killed, Hamas is not "directly exposing their own people" to the dangers of Israeli soldiers. It is Israel penning them in, and Israel exposing them to danger. Hamas is just as legitimate of a political party as any other (not very), albeit terribly conservative and fostering bigotry, but that's hardly out of step with political parties globally. They've become powerful mostly because of the disillusionment with the possibility of a two-state solution (it isn't possible, turns out), especially in Gaza, and because the PLO and Fatah have essentially abandoned Gaza, partly because they have no capability to do anything about it, partly because their own interests are rooted in the West Bank. Gaza sees more clearly what the result of this is going to be, and in general, I don't begrudge them for wanting to go down fighting at this point, even if Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood is definitely not the right way to go about it.

"Being" Hamas is like being in any political party. I've met 12-year olds protesting on the streets waiving Islamic Resistance Movement flags, telling me proudly that they were Hamas (usually because their dad is Hamas). If you kill them, is it now somehow OK because they were Hamas? Is it because of Hamas that they died? Did Hamas use them as human shields? Or are you just a human shield once you get shot by an Israeli? There is no tragic-but-necessary death in this situation. It's all just tragic, and the ones at fault are clear enough to me.

Gurgen

Coombs wrote:
"Being" Hamas is like being in any political party.

Perhaps there is no point in arguing if this is the narrative now, but here are some quotes from Hamas' Charter that was in force from 1988-2017:

[size=x-small][font=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).[/font]
[/size]

[size=x-small][font=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.[/font]
[/size]

[size=x-small][font=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.[/font]
[/size]

[size=x-small][font=Arial]"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).[/font]
[/size]

[font=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=x-small]Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."[/size][/font]

Maybe it's me but I don't know many political parties that openly call for genocide of other people.

By the way, Hamas stated today that 50/62 killed were its own operatives.

y va marquer

If you are surrounded and penned in by forces armed to the teeth, soldiers that are primed to kill when you approach, is the best course of action to walk towards that force and face them head on, knowing that you will be shot?

Why?
What is the point of it?
Israelis are the agressor, captor, butcher in this situation and you know that so why is there to achieve in dying at their hands?

Gurgen

y va marquer wrote:
People are jumping on Gurgen, he's being ridiculed and sneered at.
I do see condemnation of the Israeli actions in his posts.
I also see a condemnation of Hamas for directly exposing their own people to the dangers of coming face to face with Israeli soldiers at the border.

It's interesting why this is though. There is a curious canon that applies to discussion on politics on this forum, it's roughly like this:

Western world: bad
Colonialism: cause of all the troubles in the world
Rest of the world world: good, victims of the above
Religion: good and when something bad happens it's the people, not the wonderful peaceful ideology
Criticism of religion: bias / phobia
Socialism: cure for all the ills of mankind
Capitalism: see colonialism
Israel: Satan
All other countries in the Middle East: victims of colonialism

If you don't toe this party line, people get very upset very quickly. Oh well.

goon

Aside from BigW, who went way over the line, literally no one here has gotten upset or done anything other than argue the point. That fact that the majority disagree with your point of view doesn’t mean they’re upset. I do see a few vague, unjustified accusations of anti-semitism though.

y va marquer

Jones equated Gurgen to a contributor to the Daily Mail comments section - I don't see how that's arguing the point.

jones

Of course it's Hamas' fault. Hamas' fault that the US embassy moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. Hamas' fault that people mourned the day of Nakba. Hamas' fault that Israeli military shoots people throwing rocks at the border which consists of self proclaimed high technology observation posts from which they shoot to kill anyone in the one fucking kilometer wide buffer zone.

It's breathtaking that anyone would still argue this point, unarmed people killed by sniper rifle fire and the only remaining domestic organisation in the area that might have - by some nefarious means of course - gotten into their heads to mindcontrol them into walking into their demise is somehow to blame for this. God forbid anyone here has to spend even one day in Gaza to see the reality on the ground.

y va marquer

Gurgen wrote:
y va marquer wrote:
People are jumping on Gurgen, he's being ridiculed and sneered at.
I do see condemnation of the Israeli actions in his posts.
I also see a condemnation of Hamas for directly exposing their own people to the dangers of coming face to face with Israeli soldiers at the border.

It's interesting why this is though. There is a curious canon that applies to discussion on politics on this forum, it's roughly like this:

Western world: bad
Colonialism: cause of all the troubles in the world
Rest of the world world: good, victims of the above
Religion: good and when something bad happens it's the people, not the wonderful peaceful ideology
Criticism of religion: bias / phobia
Socialism: cure for all the ills of mankind
Capitalism: see colonialism
Israel: Satan
All other countries in the Middle East: victims of colonialism

If you don't toe this party line, people get very upset very quickly. Oh well.

It's not curious at all - it's the famed polarisation effect of online discourse and debate.
Dogma v dogma, no room for questions.

jones

y va marquer wrote:
Jones equated Gurgen to a contributor to the Daily Mail comments section - I don't see how that's arguing the point.

Because his claim that Corbyn is an anti-semite is garbage that belongs in the Daily Mail comment section. That is arguing the point, and if you want to argue his point then do it instead of policing my style of posting.

y va marquer

You're supposed to have me on ignore Jones.

jones

I don't anymore, what's the point when you're still commenting on my posts and I see them later anyway. Do I fascinate you so much or why is it so difficult for you to put me on your ignore list.

y va marquer

I don't put people on ignore Jones.
I would like to reach at stage where we can have a discussion that doesn't end in ugliness.

goon

Let’s get Jared Kushner to mediate.

y va marquer

😆

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