goon wrote:

Tactics wrote:

Are people really disputing the fact that the Mexican is the more proven goalscorer at the highest level despite being younger?

Hernandez scored at a rate of 0.35 goals per game prior to last season, that's not proof of anything other than mediocrity. 

 

Again, factor in minutes played. And how many did Vardy score at the highest level during that period ?

A lack of mins still doesn't prove anything and just further highlights the lack of evidence. Ultimately he's highest goal tally in the league is 13 prior to last season, which means he's not a proven by any definition.

Never mind his goal scoring, he's a pretty limited footballer. Right from time he played for United.

Minutes do explain a lot though: if he for example scored a goal every 50 minutes over the course of 5 seasons, that would be a very good indicator of his proficiency in front of goal. Just bring up goals scored and ignoring everything else, doesn't really say a lot.

Just saying that he scores a goal every 50 minutes over the course of 5 seasons and ignoring that he never plays enough to make that more than 15 goals isn't the way to go.

He could be a very good goalscorer but not play enough games to enable him score more than 15 goals a season purely for tactical reason. For example, if the manager feels that he's already got enough goals in the team but would like to have another player with different attribute (dribbling, tactical awareness etc)for the balance of the team, in that case,  someone who is a pure goalscorer like Hernandez would have to settle for the bench but would still give you decent amount of goals over the course of the season. And if you wanna tell whether he's a good goalscorer, minutes to goals ratio is the best indicator, not total amount of games played.

Tactics wrote:

Minutes do explain a lot though: if he for example scored a goal every 50 minutes over the course of 5 seasons, that would be a very good indicator of his proficiency in front of goal. Just bring up goals scored and ignoring everything else, doesn't really say a lot.

It's doesn't make him proven though, just like Vardy's 2 seasons don't make him proven. The idea that he'd be able to keep up a high goals v mins ratio is still a highly speculative assumption. 

I would absolutely love him here if we have no other options and is in the last week of August. He score goals everywhere, anywhere and is an extremely good finisher. All these while while watching the Copas, I am thinking he wouldn't be a bad option if we can't sign Vardy or any top strikers. Put it this way, he would easily be in the top 5 striker in the Euros if he played here.

One thing he has over Vardy since we are comparing them is in the air. He is probably one of the best headers in the world and we know how rubbish Giroud is in the air.

Giroud is many things but rubbish in the air?

He's not.

Segway wrote:

Giroud is many things but rubbish in the air?

It is not a common perception here but I find that he misses far too many easy chances in the air. He is extremely inconsistent in his heading. It would be interesting to see his conversion rate aerially.

He's still scored the most headed goals in the league since he joined. Plus he wins plenty of long balls and knock downs. His knock down to Theo earlier in the season was exceptional

Mirth wrote:

He's still scored the most headed goals in the league since he joined. Plus he wins plenty of long balls and knock downs. His knock down to Theo earlier in the season was exceptional

Yeah always thought he was one of the best headers in the PL if not the best offensive player in the air. His headers were off target in his last game but that doesn't say much.

Chicarito is the type of striker that I envision working well with Ozil....far more so than Giroud.

Cant we get anyone else better for god sake?

Another United reject? Has Biggus spontaneously combusted yet?

Please no, btw.

Giroud is really good in the air.

Our quality of delivery isn't though and we don't get enough men in the box to contest crosses and long balls. Giroud gets all the attention. Chicarito will get killed in our side contesting aerially.

We better be aiming at getting a player better than this in.

mohan wrote:

Cant we get anyone else better for god sake?

I doubt it ... But the sun is shining.

a couple of things:

1. i dont believe anyone thinks hernandez would flourish leading the line by himself. he seems effective as a foil, playing off another striker, so maybe the thought here is what we'd be playing with 2 strikers? if so, thank fucking god, its about time.
2. as always, its best to compare players using the same website and looking at stats on a per 90 basis. if only there was a site we could use to do that....WAIT!

chicharito is younger. his pure goal scoring seems a bit better than vardy's, but he might not be as complete a player. if he costs slightly less, id be okay with it, as long as our plan is to play 2 strikers.

Don't Leverkusen play with one striker? Mexico as well.

i thought leverkusen used kiessling up top? looking at their stats i guess he barely played in 15/16 so maybe i was wrong. it looks like he did play lone striker.

admittedly, i didnt watch much bundesliga this year. the impression i always got was that he didnt start and play 90 minutes a lot because he wasnt really suited to play in a 1 striker formation and lead the line. physically that seems to be the case.

i dont think hes better suited that giroud to play as a lone striker in the formation we played last year. but hes much better than walcott and welbeck is a non issue since he'll miss the whole season

Fuck no. Don't want him.

The bottom line is that I'd take him as backup to Giroud (we're short on goalscorers like Speedy said), but I'd rather not. Giroud should be the goalscoring backup to a better player going into next season. Otherwise we might as well not bother.

As for Vardy vs Chicharito, there are no comparisons really other than superficial ones. One of them is a bit-part player and the other one is the biggest reason Leicester just pulled off the biggest upset in the history of the sport.

Klaus wrote:

As for Vardy vs Chicharito, there are no comparisons really other than superficial ones. One of them is a bit-part player and the other one is the biggest reason Leicester just pulled off the biggest upset in the history of the sport.

That's pretty much it. If we can't get Vardy we should aim up, not down. though the rumours of Leicester bidding £25m for Deeney gives me some hope that it isn't over.

Would have to see where both players end up but I'd take a wager bet that Chicarito will score more goals (per game) next year than Vardy will

Would have taken him a while back but not now.

MistaT wrote:

Would have to see where both players end up but I'd take a wager bet that Chicarito will score more goals (per game) next year than Vardy will

But you wouldn't take a wager bet that Chicharito will score more goals in total next season.. 25 goals in 38 matches helps us more than 10 goals in 12 matches.

Clrnc wrote:

Segway wrote:

Giroud is many things but rubbish in the air?

It is not a common perception here but I find that he misses far too many easy chances in the air. He is extremely inconsistent in his heading. It would be interesting to see his conversion rate aerially.

You've gone next level in your Giroud bashing Clrnc

Don't want Cheech.

this is completely houseboat anyway.

Qwiss! wrote:

You've gone next level in your Giroud bashing Clrnc

Nah. I have always been consistent of the opinion that Giroud needs too many chances to head one in. He is too inconsistent in that regards. He misses 3 clear headed opportunities and then score one difficult one. I am not talking about how many aerial duels he wins, but his heading finishes.

I kinda understand the point Clrnc is making, but I think it's the wrong way to look at it. Giroud is not a clinical finisher, and that is true whether he's using his head or his feet. He is easily one of the 3-4 most dominant attacking players in Europe in the air though. He's arguably a bad goalscorer, but you can't accuse him of being bad in the air. He wins basically everything against everyone.

Giroud has come up with a lot of big headed goals for us over the years. We throw a half decent corner or freekick in and there he is to put it in. He misses some bad ones - we should have beaten Spurs at home, for example, but he missed three or four guilt edged headers - but they all miss, even the best strikers out there. He's easily as good as any one else in the Premier League at putting the ball in the net with his head.

Klaus wrote:

I kinda understands the point Clrnc is making, but I think it's the wrong way to look at it. Giroud is not a clinical finisher, and that is true whether he's using his head or his feet. He is easily one of the 3-4 most dominant attacking players in Europe in the air though. He's arguably a bad goalscorer, but you can't accuse him of being bad in the air. He wins basically everything against everyone.

It's a bit like Crouch and Dyzuba IMO. Obviously Giroud is more muscular and dominant but I find that tall players like that tend to have very bad technique in the air. 

Chicharito is extremely clinical when given a headed chance. The one where he scored against Stoke is probably still one of the most amazing headers in recent years. It's often these shorter players that have outstanding jumps and technique in the air (e.g Klose, Larsson, Cahill, Crespo)

You can't really compare Hernandez's knack for poaching to the heading ability of Klose and Larsson though. They were incredible in the air, not just because they were clinical but because they legitimately offered their teams another dimension in the attacking play.

Giroud is similar that way. Even if he only scores, say, one in ten headed attempts (I have no idea what the real numbers are), his dominance in the air means that he will have created 7-8 opportunities that another player wouldn't have. If he was as good at creating chances with his feet he would regularly notch up 30 goals per season.

Point taken, but it just means that if we have a smallish player up front we have to change our way of playing. We have enough creators in the midfield, what we really need is someone to finish the chances.

Players like Vardy and Hernandez are definitely not at that level of how Giroud brings people into play, but for that 2 or 3 more assists he gives compared to pure goal scorers like them, I think we are better off having goal scorers for a start. At home, it's not as if we really need our striker to drop deep and give another support. Stay in the box and finish one of the many chances that come into the box.

Our main problem last season is not that we don't create enough chances up front, but we don't finish them at all. Solve that root of the problem by signing a goalscorer, before we think of our plan b striker like Giroud. Hernandez is a houseboat link, but he won't be a bad backup option at all if we as usual fail to sign a top class one.

No thanks. Much rather sign Vincent Janssen or someone of that ilk. At least there's a hope that he can become a top quality striker.

The more I think about it, if we go cheap and get Vardy, we should also take this guy. Reliable veteran who can come off the bench like Kanu or Wiltord. Would be an asset