Biggus wrote:

Klaus wrote:

I think the tactical argument is nonsense to be honest. English football at large is less tactical than, say, Serie A, that much is clear to anyone, but not at top level. How come Mourinho's tactics are good enough to win in Europe with Porto and Inter but not Chelsea?  How come Ancelotti could do it with Milan and Madrid but not with an English team? All the big clubs are managed by foreigners who have enjoyed success in other countries.

Indeed Klaus, everyone is going on about English this and English that- Fact is none of the top 4 English sides are owned by Englishmen none are managed by Englishmen and hardly any of their top players are English.
The top 4 sides are only English in the sense of their home grounds

Who gives a shit about the passports that they hold? You've missed the point by miles. 

The fact is that all leagues have a unique style for a variety of factors and these change depending on circumstances. At one point, English football had combined their styles perfectly between 2005-2010, which coincided with all the top 4 teams reaching the CL final. Since then the Spanish, German and arguably the Italian teams have upped their game.

You're the first to knock Spanish teams for their style of play, so it's pretty clear that you can entertain the notion the reverse could also be true.

It's not an attack on the tactical ability of English football clubs, it's an attack on the tactical make up of the league at this point in time which isn't working in Europe any more. Every player that's moved from abroad has commented on the tactical emphasis being lower than in other European leagues.

Err why are you saying I've missed the point?

The only fucking point I'm making is that "English" clubs (especially Arsenal Chelsea and the Man's)are no such thing- Their owners managers and many coaches and players are not even English and therefore it cannot have anything to do with "crap" English tacticians crap" English players technique or fitness or "crap" English youth coaching.

No one's claimed its because of their god damn nationality though. There's no need to get prissy or see it as an attack on England. It's just the conditions which exist in this league - at this point in time - are not conducive.

I get your point that the players and managers have come from abroad, but every single player interviewed has commented on the difference in tactics from other leagues. The league itself is an amalgamation of various tactics and styles and the result is inherently different to what you see in Spain or Germany

Mirth wrote:

otfgoon wrote:

Why would that be the case though? What's changed?

The league between 2005-2010 was a very different place. Thanks to Rafa, Mourinho and Ferguson (w/h from Queiroz), there was a lot more care in the game plans that teams adopted.

I don't support managers who ask their team to sit back and defend for 90 minutes but I remember clearly that a lot of teams used be patient, particularly against us and at the moment I don't see much of that. Mourinho's not fully recaptured the nous of his old team either

It's true the league has changed but I'm still not so sure about this argument that we're being tactically outclassed as being the main reason behind our failings.

I think the biggest difference since back then is that you've got 3 sides who are significantly more talented than our sides, whereas it was only really Barcelona back then. You've also got other teams like PSG and Juventus who've gone from being way behind to being as good as or better than our best teams in terms of talent. It's only natural that you're not going to dominate in the same way. You don't even need to look to Europe to see we've been lacking a truely brilliant team in England, performances in the PL tell you all you need to know. 

There is no overall answer to why the English teams are doing poorly. Chelsea are just shit this season. We have Wenger taking teams far too lightly. United are still a work in progress with no real top class players. And City still after 4 years still haven't figured out European football (and keep getting shit draws TBF).

I've another question, has the Champions Leagues level overall increased? I mean when Chelsea and Liverpool won it they were both shit domestically at the time. Even when we got to the final we were having a bad season. It seems now that teams need to be better overall and in better form in their own league to progress to the semis, etc?

otfgoon wrote:

Mirth wrote:

The league between 2005-2010 was a very different place. Thanks to Rafa, Mourinho and Ferguson (w/h from Queiroz), there was a lot more care in the game plans that teams adopted.

I don't support managers who ask their team to sit back and defend for 90 minutes but I remember clearly that a lot of teams used be patient, particularly against us and at the moment I don't see much of that. Mourinho's not fully recaptured the nous of his old team either

It's true the league has changed but I'm still not so sure about this argument that we're being tactically outclassed as being the main reason behind our failings.

I think the biggest difference since back then is that you've got 3 sides who are significantly more talented than our sides, whereas it was only really Barcelona back then. You've also got other teams like PSG and Juventus who've gone from being way behind to being as good as or better than our best teams in terms of talent. It's only natural that you're not going to dominate in the same way. You don't even need to look to Europe to see we've been lacking a truely brilliant team in England, performances in the PL tell you all you need to know. 

Thats probably closer to it Otf, these things are cyclical, I'm old enough to remember when England ruled Europe, the German teams who formally ruled were in decline and Real was in the wilderness since the 60's, people forget that Barcelona were nothing and only won their first title in 92.
Speaking of the 90's that was the Italians turn with the great AC Milan sides, and more recently has seen Spanish success, swings and roundabouts.

If these things are cyclical, why have Tottenham been shit for around a 100 years?

They haven't won the league in my lifetime and I've seen them and Man Utd relegated, I doubt if you younger lads will ever have that particular pleasure!
Chelsea and Barcelona were nothing till a few years ago.....
But through all the ebb and flow of the tides of fortune we were always there or thereabouts, (sigh) 3rd-4th if you will.

Barca were big in the 80s Biggus.

Barcelona at least were always a big club domestically, Chelsea on the other hand have been scum for the entirety of their existence.

Chelsea are a big club, unfortunately, last 10 years they have become bigger than the team we love.

Size of a club depends on many things but last 10 years hands down they have owned it.

Sicario wrote:

Barca were big in the 80s Biggus.

We're talking about how different countries were dominant in Europe especially the champions cup at different times.
No Spanish club won the trophy in the 80's and Barcelona only won it for the first time in 1992.

Sicario wrote:

Chelsea are a big club, unfortunately, last 10 years they have become bigger than the team we love.

Buying a few trophies doesn't make them bigger than us. Thats like saying City are a bigger club than Liverpool.

Yeah, I agree with that. There are of course different interpretations of what constitutes a big club.

Have to have won the champions cup.

Qwiss! wrote:

I've another question, has the Champions Leagues level overall increased? I mean when Chelsea and Liverpool won it they were both shit domestically at the time. Even when  we got to the final we were having a bad season. It seems now that teams need to be better overall and in better form in their own league to progress to the semis, etc?

Thats one thing which hasn't changed over the years, teams league form has borne no relationship with their cup form.

You guys are talking about this as if it's par for the course. English teams have been floundering only relatively recently. It's all cyclical.

English teams have done well in Europe generally.

Since the start of the Champions League, Spanish teams, well mostly Real Madrid and Barcelona have reached the semi-final 26 times and English teams have reached the semi-finals 20 times. Semi-final appearances for teams from other Leagues are lower.

There isn't much difference, considering Barcelona and Real have done exceedingly well in the last few years.

I didn't bother looking up the European Cup history.

banduan wrote:

You guys are talking about this as if it's par for the course. English teams have been floundering only relatively recently. It's all cyclical.

It's not though - when do you reckon the Dutch league will go back to dominating European football?