Why are English clubs so shit in Europe?

Klaus

At first I felt it had something to do with fixture congestion - Premier League doesn't give two fucks about Champions League when it's putting together the fixture schedule - but I don't think that's it. Look at Juventus's fixtures during September, for instance:

Wed 30th September
CL Juventus 19:45 Sevilla

Sat 26th September
SER A Napoli 2 1 Juventus FT

Wed 23rd September
SER A Juventus 1 1 Frosinone FT

Sun 20th September
SER A Genoa 0 2 Juventus FT

Tue 15th September
CL Manchester City 1 2 Juventus FT

Sat 12th September
SER A Juventus 1 1 Chievo FT

6 games in 2 weeks. That's literally a game every 3rd day. And all of them are vital. No league cup to lighten things up. The same thing is true for Leverkusen and other Bundesliga clubs:

Tue 29th September
CL Barcelona 2 1 Bayer Leverkusen FT

Sat 26th September
BUN Werder Bremen 0 3 Bayer Leverkusen FT

Wed 23rd September
BUN Bayer Leverkusen 1 0 Mainz FT

Sun 20th September
BUN Borussia Dortmund 3 0 Bayer Leverkusen FT

Wed 16th September
CL Bayer Leverkusen 4 1 BATE Borisov FT

Sat 12th September
BUN Bayer Leverkusen 0 1 SV Darmstadt 98 FT

Here's Barca's fixture schedule for the same period:

Tue 29th September
CL Barcelona 2 1 Bayer Leverkusen FT

Sat 26th September
LIGA Barcelona 2 1 Las Palmas FT

Wed 23rd September
LIGA Celta Vigo 4 1 Barcelona FT

Sun 20th September
LIGA Barcelona 4 1 Levante FT

Wed 16th September
CL Roma 1 1 Barcelona FT

Sat 12th September
LIGA Atletico Madrid 1 2 Barcelona FT

On the face of it there's very little excuse for the weak start of the Premier League clubs. Bad luck? Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe even probable. This year's start to Champions League has certainly been a one off. But the weak start is not why Premier League is running the very real risk of losing the coefficient at the moment. It's because English clubs have systematically underperformed for a while now. Why exactly is that?

You can certainly make the argument that English clubs aren't as good as Bayern or the two Spanish giants, but you can't convince me that Chelsea (on last year's form) is a worse club than Atletico Madrid or Juventus or Dortmund. I watch all of them regularly enough to know that's not true. So what is it? Fixture congestion post Christmas where PL automatically takes precedence? Lack of a winter break? Is the extra domestic cup putting extra strain on the teams? Do English players, on average, suffer more injuries than their peers abroad, which means English clubs can field a full team in the knockout rounds less often?

Bold Tone

This season is a low though by any measure as, like you say, all the premiership teams have had poor results.
I didn't watch the other games but we were second best to a lowly Zagreb the other week and embarrassing at home last night.

Clrnc

English clubs is too full of themselves and underrate clubs from other countries.

Gazza M

epl is a junk food high calorie low nutrition league. gets the dopamine levels going for a short burst but after that wears off, you can see there's not much substance in any of the alleged top sides. arsenal are managed by a has been, city are managed by a tactical nonce, chelsea always play like cowards in europe under mourinho, united are painfully mediocre and managed by a loon. the epl has been an overrated farce since around 11-12. exciting, yes, but still a farce. the amount of money flooding in just makes it even more farcical. i find myself actually laughing during epl games nowadays rather than being impressed or admiring real quality or skill

its odd because to me theres no truly great teams in europe today, but the top german, italian, french, and spanish sides would still embarrass any of englands top sides

Irishgunner

Because the English teams are no longer very good. Especially tactically and technically.

goon

Why would that be the case though? What's changed?

Rohit

It's hard to tell and it may be a little too simplistic but I think none of the English teams currently having winning midfields, technically or tactically, that can either go away and win or beat any of the continental biggies.

Mirth

English clubs are tactically not on par with their counter parts, clubs from the continent get an extend break in the middle of the season, foreign leagues are less competitive and therefore more scope to risk domestic games and English football fans are generally pretty clueless about how good other leagues really are. It's barely been six months since people on here claimed Southampton and Liverpool are better than Seville and confuse excitement for quality.

Since 2010, the success of English clubs in the Champions league group stages have declined dramatically. Maybe the loss of the fourth Champions League berth will make people more aware.

There's a lot of money in this league but it's made clubs more inefficient - not better.

Mirth

otfgoon wrote:
Why would that be the case though? What's changed?

The league between 2005-2010 was a very different place. Thanks to Rafa, Mourinho and Ferguson (w/h from Queiroz), there was a lot more care in the game plans that teams adopted.

I don't support managers who ask their team to sit back and defend for 90 minutes but I remember clearly that a lot of teams used be patient, particularly against us and at the moment I don't see much of that. Mourinho's not fully recaptured the nous of his old team either

Kel Varnsen

How many matches per year and how long is the season for English clubs compared to the rest of Europe?

Meatwad

biggest sign that wenger needed to go for a while now is that he can't even win this shitty league.

managed by shitty tacticians.
the culture of arrogant managers buying the players when in fact they aren't always the best judge, so the premier league is filled with inefficient transfers.
wages not commensurate with ability.
poor youth development.

the same problems that the england team has, the league has. that wasn't always the case, but it is now.

Klaus

I think the tactical argument is nonsense to be honest. English football at large is less tactical than, say, Serie A, that much is clear to anyone, but not at top level. How come Mourinho's tactics are good enough to win in Europe with Porto and Inter but not Chelsea? How come Ancelotti could do it with Milan and Madrid but not with an English team? All the big clubs are managed by foreigners who have enjoyed success in other countries.

Bold Tone

Agreed.
Also, the "mid-season break" excuse cannot be used in September.

Clrnc

United already trailing, and Hart just saved a penalty. Not a coincidence English clubs are struggling.

Martial looks the real deal, just embarrassed Rodriguez yet again.

Klaus

Bold Tone wrote:
Also, the "mid-season break" excuse cannot be used in September.

Definitely not. But English clubs don't usually start this poorly either.

My gut feeling is that the heart of the issue is a combination of lack of a winter break, bad fixture congestion during the winter months and the extra domestic cup.

If you look at Bundesliga by contrast, they've got a league season that is only 34 games long, a welcome winter break, and only one domestic cup. If you're going to compete with that you better have a league organisation that understands the necessity of rest and preparation, and I don't think we do in Premier League.

I'd be very interested if anyone has injury statistics for the various top leagues in Europe. My gut feeling is that Premier League is leading the pack by quite some distance.

Mirth

Klaus wrote:
I think the tactical argument is nonsense to be honest. English football at large is less tactical than, say, Serie A, that much is clear to anyone, but not at top level. How come Mourinho's tactics are good enough to win in Europe with Porto and Inter but not Chelsea? How come Ancelotti could do it with Milan and Madrid but not with an English team? All the big clubs are managed by foreigners who have enjoyed success in other countries.

Ancelotti only spent two seasons at Chelsea. That's a small sample size by any metric but he still did well enough in the CL.

Mourinho's approach definitely cost him against PSG last season but he reached the CL semi final the season before which is a stronger showing than any other English club managed since 2011. ATM It's not about winning the CL, it's about going far in the competition

You need to look at the whole picture, including how English teams perform in the Europa league.

Mirth

Bold Tone wrote:
Agreed.
Also, the "mid-season break" excuse cannot be used in September.

No one's trying to explain current form though, English clubs usually do well in the group stages. The two teams that are struggling are Arsenal and Chelsea and they're struggling domestically as well.

jones

Mirth wrote:
Bold Tone wrote:
Agreed.
Also, the "mid-season break" excuse cannot be used in September.

No one's trying to explain current form though, English clubs usually do well in the group stages. The two teams that are struggling are Arsenal and Chelsea and they're struggling domestically as well.

Not sure about that, not even talking about us but Chelsea, United and City are all on three points after two games after losing to teams most here would have expected them to beat. Except for Chelsea English clubs don't even do that well in the group stages either for a few years now, can barely remember the last time we finished 1st in our group, United and City dropped to the EL in recent years as well.

Mirth

City lost to Juventus tbf

jones

Looking at how both teams started their seasons you'd have expected City to run Juve over.