wasn't a must win game
Champions League 2015/2016
these guys are probably as good as Juve, Bayern and Real. If Barca f-up, PSG has as good a chance as anyone
Tony Montana wrote:Klaus wrote:He has scored 31 goals in 34 games this season. I think he's doing fine leading the line.
Contender for Ballon D'or?
Should probably get it if he wins Champions League with PSG, but there are only two players who get the award nowadays and it's not going to change until they change the rules.
otfgoon wrote:Klaus wrote:He has scored 31 goals in 34 games this season. I think he's doing fine leading the line.
Fair point
Still, there were a few instances over the two legs where PSG got into decent positions out wide and literally had no one in the box. Makes them less potent at this level in my opinion.
It looked like they adjusted his position a bit in the second half because their midfield got overrun though. They'd already won the first leg too so all they needed to do here was avoid losing.
Klaus wrote:Tony Montana wrote:Contender for Ballon D'or?
Should probably get it if he wins Champions League with PSG, but there are only two players who get the award nowadays and it's not going to change until they change the rules.
Wait until the next Ballon d'Or, Ronaldo won't make top 2.
Klaus wrote:Tony Montana wrote:Contender for Ballon D'or?
Should probably get it if he wins Champions League with PSG, but there are only two players who get the award nowadays and it's not going to change until they change the rules.
No one really care what Ibrahamovic does in the French league, the Champions league tends to be the biggest barometer for whoever goes on to win the Ballon d'or and, let's face it, Ibrahamovic is massively underwhelming in the CL.
Mirth wrote:Klaus wrote:Should probably get it if he wins Champions League with PSG, but there are only two players who get the award nowadays and it's not going to change until they change the rules.
No one really care what Ibrahamovic does in the French league, the Champions league tends to be the biggest barometer for whoever goes on to win the Ballon d'or and, let's face it, Ibrahamovic is massively underwhelming in the CL.
I don't think he's particularly underwhelming in Champions League. It doesn't look like CL success has anything to do with the award either. It usually goes to Messi, and if he's been injured a lot Ronaldo gets the scraps. Someone like Franck Ribery, who was the best player in the best team in the world a few years back, never got anywhere near the ballon d'or in terms of votes.
The reason I think he won't win is because he isn't the best football player in the world. 
Klaus wrote:Mirth wrote:No one really care what Ibrahamovic does in the French league, the Champions league tends to be the biggest barometer for whoever goes on to win the Ballon d'or and, let's face it, Ibrahamovic is massively underwhelming in the CL.
I don't think he's particularly underwhelming in Champions League.
Relative to his immense form in the league, he's always been found wanting in the CL. I know he's the tenth highest goal scorer in CL history but he's also got the worst goal to game ratio out of all of them. Plus his record in the knock out rounds is even worse.
It doesn't look like CL success has anything to do with the award either. It usually goes to Messi, and if he's been injured a lot Ronaldo gets the scraps. Someone like Franck Ribery, who was the best player in the best team in the world a few years back, never got anywhere near the ballon d'or in terms of votes.
Well, that's fundamentally not true. Ribery was third in the rankings in 12/13 - that's pretty close if you ask me. Ronaldo won it that year, despite the fact that Messi outscored him and was not injured because his team won La Liga. Subsequently Ronaldo won it for a second time because Madrid won the CL. At no point did the majority of people ever think Ronaldo was better than Messi, therefore the inevitable conclusion is that the Ballon d'or is extremely trophy driven.
Ribery got a lot closer to winning the Ballon 'dor than Ibrahamovic ever has and, I suspect, ever will.
Edit: Just checked, the voting for 12/13 was as follows - Ronaldo with 27%, Messi with 24% and Ribery with 23%. That's pretty fucking close.
Savz wrote:Klaus wrote:Should probably get it if he wins Champions League with PSG, but there are only two players who get the award nowadays and it's not going to change until they change the rules.
Wait until the next Ballon d'Or, Ronaldo won't make top 2.
40 goals in 36 games. Even better Champs League record. Just who is going to be voted ahead of him?
Mirth wrote:Well, that's fundamentally not true. Ribery was third in the rankings in 12/13 - that's pretty close if you ask me.
Point was that he didn't win during a season where he was the most important player in the team that won everything in Europe, and it's down to a fundamental flaw in the voting system. When you make it a popularity contest instead of having a selective jury you're always gonna get results more in line with the commercial profiles of the players than their actual achievements during said timeframe.
Another example would be Spain. I think it was Cruyff who pointed out that Spanish football dominated Europe for a decade, won one world cups and two Euros, and yet not a single player from that generation has ever gotten close to the award. Guys like Iniesta and Xavi have never gotten more than a third of the votes Messi and Ronaldo get.
Quincy Abeyie wrote:The reason I think he won't win is because he isn't the best football player in the world.
Always a question of how you measure it, innit. In terms of talent we could just give the award to Messi each year until he retires because the second best player in the world is about half as talented as he is. On a good day.
Personally I think a better barometer is to look at how important a player is to his team's success. It doesn't tell me much that Barca and Real Madrid have a bunch of players who almost average a goal a game, for instance. They're all top tier, but the nature of modern football means that whoever lines up for them will score an absurd amount of goals. Guys like Pedro have had 30 goal seasons in the past. Stats become bloated when you have super clubs who are that much better than anyone else.
Klaus wrote:Mirth wrote:Well, that's fundamentally not true. Ribery was third in the rankings in 12/13 - that's pretty close if you ask me.
In terms of votes he was nowhere close, and it's down to a fundamental flaw in the voting system. When you make it a popularity contest instead of having a selective jury you're always gonna get results more in line with the commercial profiles of the players than their actual achievements during the seasons in question.
Just checked, the voting for 12/13 was as follows - Ronaldo with 27%, Messi with 24% and Ribery with 23%. That's pretty fucking close
So, not true. Ibrahamovic is on there btw. Got 5%. Strong.
Again, my point was that he didn't win. He was head and shoulders the best player in the Bayern team that won everything there was to win in Europe and he couldn't do it. Exactly what is the criteria supposed to be?
Klaus wrote:Another example would be Spain. I think it was Cruyff who pointed out that Spanish football dominated Europe for a decade, won one world cups and two Euros, and yet not a single player from that generation has ever gotten close to the award. Guys like Iniesta and Xavi have never gotten more than a third of the votes Messi and Ronaldo get.
2010 - Messi: 22% Iniesta 17% Xavi 16%
2012 - Messi: 42% Ronaldo - 23% Iniesta 10%
Admittedly you'd have to forgive the disparity in 2012 but then Messi only scored 96 goals that year.
it's a popularity contest, Klaus. people don't actually watch these players apart from 5 or 6 games. they see highlight reels and listen to other commentators and players and decide.
how tightly do you come up with a definition? do you say something as simple as the player who contributed most to their team winning? how do you define contribution and how do you stack winning? is one FA Cup enough or does it need to be the biggest haul of big name trophies? do you weight the leagues?
Mirth wrote:Klaus wrote:Another example would be Spain. I think it was Cruyff who pointed out that Spanish football dominated Europe for a decade, won one world cups and two Euros, and yet not a single player from that generation has ever gotten close to the award. Guys like Iniesta and Xavi have never gotten more than a third of the votes Messi and Ronaldo get.
2010 - Messi: 22% Iniesta 17% Xavi 16%
2012 - Messi: 42% Ronaldo - 23% Iniesta 10%Admittedly you'd have to forgive the disparity in 2012 but then Messi only scored 96 goals that year.
Fine, forget the error about the votes and address the core of the point instead then: Why haven't anyone except for Messi and Ronaldo won the award when there are guys who have been absolutely instrumental to winning the World Cup, the Euros and the Champions League during the last 8 or 9 years? What is the actual criteria for winning the ballon d'or?`
Klaus wrote:Again, my point was that he didn't win. He was head and shoulders the best player in the Bayern team that won everything there was to win in Europe and he couldn't do it. Exactly what is the criteria supposed to be?
Well, he wasn't 'head and shoulders' the best player in Europe, obviously. He had a terrific year, the award could have gone to any of them, there was a 3% swing between the votes. You have to allow for a difference of opinion sometimes because others may well be more swayed by the players scoring 60 odd goals a season. It's hardly a scandalous choice to vote for Ronaldo or Messi.
If anything, he's been the closest to breaking the Ronaldo/Messi stronghold on the award. Certainly enough to at least reconsider your original post on the matter.
Claudius wrote:how tightly do you come up with a definition? do you say something as simple as the player who contributed most to their team winning? how do you define contribution and how do you stack winning? is one FA Cup enough or does it need to be the biggest haul of big name trophies? do you weight the leagues?
Yeah, it's hardly an exact science. I think when it comes to someone like Ribery, being widely regarded as the best player on the team that is winning Champions League, Bundesliga and the German cup is pretty much a grand slam though. You literally can't perform better.
Klaus wrote:Mirth wrote:2010 - Messi: 22% Iniesta 17% Xavi 16%
2012 - Messi: 42% Ronaldo - 23% Iniesta 10%Admittedly you'd have to forgive the disparity in 2012 but then Messi only scored 96 goals that year.
There is no 'criteria' obviously. People vote for a variety of reasons - some of them vote for their mates, some people vote the way they do because the value club football over international football and vice versa.
Either way, most people would agree that Messi and Ronaldo are the two best footballers of the past generation and also the biggest headline grabbers. It's hardly surprising they get the most votes. They routinely score 60 goals a season! That's enough to be in the top 3 every year as far as I'm concerned.
It's not like players who've won the World Cup don't get recognition at these events. Canavarro won the Ballon d'or over Ronaldinho and Henry which was bizarre back in 2006. I just think that it's quite hard to look past Ronaldo and Messi because, fundamentally, they are the two best individuals in at least 5 of the last 6 seasons.
Mirth wrote:Klaus wrote:
There is no 'criteria' obviously. People vote for a variety of reasons - some of them vote for their mates, some people vote the way they do because the value club football over international football and vice versa.
Either way, most people would agree that Messi and Ronaldo are the two best footballers of the past generation and also the biggest headline grabbers. It's hardly surprising they get the most votes.
I didn't say it was surprising. I just said it's a result of the way the voting is structured, and it's going to remain that way until they change the system. You pointing towards Ribery 'coming close' to breaking that tie doesn't disprove the point. It reinforces it.
Klaus wrote:Mirth wrote:There is no 'criteria' obviously. People vote for a variety of reasons - some of them vote for their mates, some people vote the way they do because the value club football over international football and vice versa.
Either way, most people would agree that Messi and Ronaldo are the two best footballers of the past generation and also the biggest headline grabbers. It's hardly surprising they get the most votes.
I didn't say it was surprising. I just said it's a result of the way the voting is structured, and it's going to remain that way until they change the system. You pointing towards Ribery 'coming close' to breaking that tie doesn't disprove the point. It reinforces it.
Not really, I consider Ronaldo and Messi to be the best two players of the last 5-6 seasons. I don't believe at any point someone like Ribery surpassed either of them as an individual player. If the history books were to chronicle football history over this period based on the awards, they'd conclude that Messi is the best one of the lot, followed by Ronaldo. And that would be correct.
Ribery coming close reinforces my point, not yours. Particularly since your opening gambit was that he wasn't any where close to winning it. When he patently was within a 3% swing. Which is the closest anyone has ever come to breaking the strong hold. Just because you don't like the result doesn't mean the entire voting system is wrong because judging who the best individual in a team sport is a subjective process.
Savz wrote:COSTA THE KILLER!
The fuck are you on about?! You DO know this is an Arsenal forum right? Are you aware that every Arsenal fan with his head screwed on right absolutely detests Costa? Actually, that's every football fan of every club other than Atletico Madrid and Chelsea.
Mirth wrote:Just because you don't like the result doesn't mean the entire voting system is wrong because judging who the best individual in a team sport is a subjective process.
It's wrong when the same two players come out on top every time regardless of what anyone else achieves. If rating achievement is indeed subjective then an award where you know the outcome before the season has even started has a genuine problem when it comes to the voting process.
Getting really tired of this discussion now. You either see the problem with it or you don't, but the complete lack of a criteria for winning other than what people perceive to be the 'best individual', without something tangible to connect that to apart from goal stats, makes it all a bit pointless.
Tony Montana wrote:Michael Owen is so annoying.
Michael Owen Quotes (@mickyowenquotes) tweeted at 9:22 PM on Wed, Mar 09, 2016:
19:50: "The balls are light so it will be a quick game".
Zlatan Facts (@ZIatanFacts) tweeted at 9:35 PM on Wed, Mar 09, 2016:
Zlatan's nose is longer than Chelsea's history. #ZlatanFacts
Klaus wrote:Mirth wrote:Just because you don't like the result doesn't mean the entire voting system is wrong because judging who the best individual in a team sport is a subjective process.
It's wrong when the same two players come out on top every time regardless of what anyone else achieves. If rating achievement is indeed subjective then an award where you know the outcome before the season has even started has a genuine problem when it comes to the voting process.
Getting really tired of this discussion now. You either see the problem with it or you don't, but the complete lack of a criteria for winning other than what people perceive to be the 'best individual', without something tangible to connect that to apart from goal stats, makes it all a bit pointless.
You make it out to be that the Ballon d'or has always been this predictable. That's never been the case until Messi and Ronaldo came around. Few players in history have EVER dominate individual awards like they have. True, the awards do throw up some controversial names once in a while - but which award ceremony doesn't? It's a whole lot better this way than the PFA awards which some rewarded Giggs for just being alive a few years ago. Now that really was mockery. Having a set criteria would ruin not only the awards but the discussion around them - you might as well have their fucking whoscored.com stats up there instead.
And yes, a lot of great players have achieved some amazing feats in the past few years. But so have Messi and Ronaldo. You fail to confront the most obvious fact that these two set new records on practically a weekly basis which automatically make them favourites to win the Ballon d'or on a regular basis. Moreover, they have carried their teams for large parts of the season and win a fair amount of trophies themselves. So that doesn't make it wrong in my eyes. I would say, in the past 6 years, they got the winner of the Ballon d'or right 5 out of the 6 times. Do you agree? If so, I think there's a serious lack of perspective in your argument.
Rex wrote:Savz wrote:COSTA THE KILLER!
The fuck are you on about?! You DO know this is an Arsenal forum right? Are you aware that every Arsenal fan with his head screwed on right absolutely detests Costa? Actually, that's every football fan of every club other than Atletico Madrid and Chelsea.
I actually find him pretty hilarious, he's like an OTT hillbilly character. Stuff like this is just gold.
If the award is for the best player in the world, then Messi should have won it those years Ronaldo won it too.
otfgoon wrote:Rex wrote:The fuck are you on about?! You DO know this is an Arsenal forum right? Are you aware that every Arsenal fan with his head screwed on right absolutely detests Costa? Actually, that's every football fan of every club other than Atletico Madrid and Chelsea.
I actually find him pretty hilarious, he's like an OTT hillbilly character. Stuff like this is just gold.
Yeah, I was actually a big fan of his when he was at Atlético. Back then he didn't dive nearly as much but still threw a couple punches every game, plus he went to town on Pepe and Ramos during every Madrid derby which automatically made him a decent bloke in my book.
Klaus wrote:Claudius wrote:how tightly do you come up with a definition? do you say something as simple as the player who contributed most to their team winning? how do you define contribution and how do you stack winning? is one FA Cup enough or does it need to be the biggest haul of big name trophies? do you weight the leagues?
Yeah, it's hardly an exact science. I think when it comes to someone like Ribery, being widely regarded as the best player on the team that is winning Champions League, Bundesliga and the German cup is pretty much a grand slam though. You literally can't perform better.
The Ballon d'Or is a trophy for an individual player; take Ribery out of that Bayern side and put another very good winger in there and they still would have been a top contender for all three trophies. Take Messi out of Barcelona that year and they would have struggled to 3rd place maybe instead of winning the league with 100 points despite their manager being hospitalised all season.
I'd also add that Martinez was a close second in terms of importance for Bayern that season and that using this logic you might have made a case for Sneijder in 2010 (who won the treble and got Holland to the WC final). If Barcelona weren't robbed against Inter that year they win back to back CLs and it would have to be Messi again for the Ballon, same possibly if Messi and Busquets weren't injured during the CL semis 12/13 and they had a healthy manager on the sidelines. So it makes sense imo over the course of a full season to give it to the player who by himself is clearly superior to other contenders.
Mirth wrote:
He's been pretty terrible in majority of the big games in Europe but this article makes a fair point.
Verratti wasn't playing tonight, which is part of the explanation, but the level of carelessness with the ball PSG showed in deep positions will have to improve a lot if they are to be in with any chance of winning the CL this season.
Hope PSG win it. Zlatan deserves to bow out with a CL winners medal.
We are still in it!
Claudius wrote:Savz wrote:Wait until the next Ballon d'Or, Ronaldo won't make top 2.
40 goals in 36 games. Even better Champs League record. Just who is going to be voted ahead of him?
Suarez
y va marquer wrote:Tony Montana wrote:Michael Owen is so annoying.
Michael Owen Quotes (@mickyowenquotes) tweeted at 9:22 PM on Wed, Mar 09, 2016:
19:50: "The balls are light so it will be a quick game".
Well he's right. Carrying heavy balls around slows you down so much.
I know yesterday PSG made lots of mistakes, but they still play the ball really well from the back. Stark contrast to the way our backline and midfield plays. Motta is especially brilliant at this.
Rex wrote:Savz wrote:COSTA THE KILLER!
The fuck are you on about?! You DO know this is an Arsenal forum right? Are you aware that every Arsenal fan with his head screwed on right absolutely detests Costa? Actually, that's every football fan of every club other than Atletico Madrid and Chelsea.
Right on Rex, with you all the way mate!
Rex wrote:If the award is for the best player in the world, then Messi should have won it those years Ronaldo won it too.
Aaaand then you go an join all the other Messi masturbators.
Come on Biggus, that's just not necessary.
In any case you must know Rex cannot see your posts.