wasn't a must win game
Champions League 2015/2016
these guys are probably as good as Juve, Bayern and Real. If Barca f-up, PSG has as good a chance as anyone
Tony Montana wrote:Klaus wrote:He has scored 31 goals in 34 games this season. I think he's doing fine leading the line.
Contender for Ballon D'or?
Should probably get it if he wins Champions League with PSG, but there are only two players who get the award nowadays and it's not going to change until they change the rules.
otfgoon wrote:Klaus wrote:He has scored 31 goals in 34 games this season. I think he's doing fine leading the line.
Fair point
Still, there were a few instances over the two legs where PSG got into decent positions out wide and literally had no one in the box. Makes them less potent at this level in my opinion.
It looked like they adjusted his position a bit in the second half because their midfield got overrun though. They'd already won the first leg too so all they needed to do here was avoid losing.
Klaus wrote:Tony Montana wrote:Contender for Ballon D'or?
Should probably get it if he wins Champions League with PSG, but there are only two players who get the award nowadays and it's not going to change until they change the rules.
Wait until the next Ballon d'Or, Ronaldo won't make top 2.
Klaus wrote:Tony Montana wrote:Contender for Ballon D'or?
Should probably get it if he wins Champions League with PSG, but there are only two players who get the award nowadays and it's not going to change until they change the rules.
No one really care what Ibrahamovic does in the French league, the Champions league tends to be the biggest barometer for whoever goes on to win the Ballon d'or and, let's face it, Ibrahamovic is massively underwhelming in the CL.
Mirth wrote:Klaus wrote:Should probably get it if he wins Champions League with PSG, but there are only two players who get the award nowadays and it's not going to change until they change the rules.
No one really care what Ibrahamovic does in the French league, the Champions league tends to be the biggest barometer for whoever goes on to win the Ballon d'or and, let's face it, Ibrahamovic is massively underwhelming in the CL.
I don't think he's particularly underwhelming in Champions League. It doesn't look like CL success has anything to do with the award either. It usually goes to Messi, and if he's been injured a lot Ronaldo gets the scraps. Someone like Franck Ribery, who was the best player in the best team in the world a few years back, never got anywhere near the ballon d'or in terms of votes.
The reason I think he won't win is because he isn't the best football player in the world. 
Klaus wrote:Mirth wrote:No one really care what Ibrahamovic does in the French league, the Champions league tends to be the biggest barometer for whoever goes on to win the Ballon d'or and, let's face it, Ibrahamovic is massively underwhelming in the CL.
I don't think he's particularly underwhelming in Champions League.
Relative to his immense form in the league, he's always been found wanting in the CL. I know he's the tenth highest goal scorer in CL history but he's also got the worst goal to game ratio out of all of them. Plus his record in the knock out rounds is even worse.
It doesn't look like CL success has anything to do with the award either. It usually goes to Messi, and if he's been injured a lot Ronaldo gets the scraps. Someone like Franck Ribery, who was the best player in the best team in the world a few years back, never got anywhere near the ballon d'or in terms of votes.
Well, that's fundamentally not true. Ribery was third in the rankings in 12/13 - that's pretty close if you ask me. Ronaldo won it that year, despite the fact that Messi outscored him and was not injured because his team won La Liga. Subsequently Ronaldo won it for a second time because Madrid won the CL. At no point did the majority of people ever think Ronaldo was better than Messi, therefore the inevitable conclusion is that the Ballon d'or is extremely trophy driven.
Ribery got a lot closer to winning the Ballon 'dor than Ibrahamovic ever has and, I suspect, ever will.
Edit: Just checked, the voting for 12/13 was as follows - Ronaldo with 27%, Messi with 24% and Ribery with 23%. That's pretty fucking close.
Savz wrote:Klaus wrote:Should probably get it if he wins Champions League with PSG, but there are only two players who get the award nowadays and it's not going to change until they change the rules.
Wait until the next Ballon d'Or, Ronaldo won't make top 2.
40 goals in 36 games. Even better Champs League record. Just who is going to be voted ahead of him?
Mirth wrote:Well, that's fundamentally not true. Ribery was third in the rankings in 12/13 - that's pretty close if you ask me.
Point was that he didn't win during a season where he was the most important player in the team that won everything in Europe, and it's down to a fundamental flaw in the voting system. When you make it a popularity contest instead of having a selective jury you're always gonna get results more in line with the commercial profiles of the players than their actual achievements during said timeframe.
Another example would be Spain. I think it was Cruyff who pointed out that Spanish football dominated Europe for a decade, won one world cups and two Euros, and yet not a single player from that generation has ever gotten close to the award. Guys like Iniesta and Xavi have never gotten more than a third of the votes Messi and Ronaldo get.
Quincy Abeyie wrote:The reason I think he won't win is because he isn't the best football player in the world.
Always a question of how you measure it, innit. In terms of talent we could just give the award to Messi each year until he retires because the second best player in the world is about half as talented as he is. On a good day.
Personally I think a better barometer is to look at how important a player is to his team's success. It doesn't tell me much that Barca and Real Madrid have a bunch of players who almost average a goal a game, for instance. They're all top tier, but the nature of modern football means that whoever lines up for them will score an absurd amount of goals. Guys like Pedro have had 30 goal seasons in the past. Stats become bloated when you have super clubs who are that much better than anyone else.
Klaus wrote:Mirth wrote:Well, that's fundamentally not true. Ribery was third in the rankings in 12/13 - that's pretty close if you ask me.
In terms of votes he was nowhere close, and it's down to a fundamental flaw in the voting system. When you make it a popularity contest instead of having a selective jury you're always gonna get results more in line with the commercial profiles of the players than their actual achievements during the seasons in question.
Just checked, the voting for 12/13 was as follows - Ronaldo with 27%, Messi with 24% and Ribery with 23%. That's pretty fucking close
So, not true. Ibrahamovic is on there btw. Got 5%. Strong.
Again, my point was that he didn't win. He was head and shoulders the best player in the Bayern team that won everything there was to win in Europe and he couldn't do it. Exactly what is the criteria supposed to be?
Klaus wrote:Another example would be Spain. I think it was Cruyff who pointed out that Spanish football dominated Europe for a decade, won one world cups and two Euros, and yet not a single player from that generation has ever gotten close to the award. Guys like Iniesta and Xavi have never gotten more than a third of the votes Messi and Ronaldo get.
2010 - Messi: 22% Iniesta 17% Xavi 16%
2012 - Messi: 42% Ronaldo - 23% Iniesta 10%
Admittedly you'd have to forgive the disparity in 2012 but then Messi only scored 96 goals that year.
it's a popularity contest, Klaus. people don't actually watch these players apart from 5 or 6 games. they see highlight reels and listen to other commentators and players and decide.
how tightly do you come up with a definition? do you say something as simple as the player who contributed most to their team winning? how do you define contribution and how do you stack winning? is one FA Cup enough or does it need to be the biggest haul of big name trophies? do you weight the leagues?
Mirth wrote:Klaus wrote:Another example would be Spain. I think it was Cruyff who pointed out that Spanish football dominated Europe for a decade, won one world cups and two Euros, and yet not a single player from that generation has ever gotten close to the award. Guys like Iniesta and Xavi have never gotten more than a third of the votes Messi and Ronaldo get.
2010 - Messi: 22% Iniesta 17% Xavi 16%
2012 - Messi: 42% Ronaldo - 23% Iniesta 10%Admittedly you'd have to forgive the disparity in 2012 but then Messi only scored 96 goals that year.
Fine, forget the error about the votes and address the core of the point instead then: Why haven't anyone except for Messi and Ronaldo won the award when there are guys who have been absolutely instrumental to winning the World Cup, the Euros and the Champions League during the last 8 or 9 years? What is the actual criteria for winning the ballon d'or?`
Klaus wrote:Again, my point was that he didn't win. He was head and shoulders the best player in the Bayern team that won everything there was to win in Europe and he couldn't do it. Exactly what is the criteria supposed to be?
Well, he wasn't 'head and shoulders' the best player in Europe, obviously. He had a terrific year, the award could have gone to any of them, there was a 3% swing between the votes. You have to allow for a difference of opinion sometimes because others may well be more swayed by the players scoring 60 odd goals a season. It's hardly a scandalous choice to vote for Ronaldo or Messi.
If anything, he's been the closest to breaking the Ronaldo/Messi stronghold on the award. Certainly enough to at least reconsider your original post on the matter.
Claudius wrote:how tightly do you come up with a definition? do you say something as simple as the player who contributed most to their team winning? how do you define contribution and how do you stack winning? is one FA Cup enough or does it need to be the biggest haul of big name trophies? do you weight the leagues?
Yeah, it's hardly an exact science. I think when it comes to someone like Ribery, being widely regarded as the best player on the team that is winning Champions League, Bundesliga and the German cup is pretty much a grand slam though. You literally can't perform better.
Klaus wrote:Mirth wrote:2010 - Messi: 22% Iniesta 17% Xavi 16%
2012 - Messi: 42% Ronaldo - 23% Iniesta 10%Admittedly you'd have to forgive the disparity in 2012 but then Messi only scored 96 goals that year.
There is no 'criteria' obviously. People vote for a variety of reasons - some of them vote for their mates, some people vote the way they do because the value club football over international football and vice versa.
Either way, most people would agree that Messi and Ronaldo are the two best footballers of the past generation and also the biggest headline grabbers. It's hardly surprising they get the most votes. They routinely score 60 goals a season! That's enough to be in the top 3 every year as far as I'm concerned.
It's not like players who've won the World Cup don't get recognition at these events. Canavarro won the Ballon d'or over Ronaldinho and Henry which was bizarre back in 2006. I just think that it's quite hard to look past Ronaldo and Messi because, fundamentally, they are the two best individuals in at least 5 of the last 6 seasons.
Mirth wrote:Klaus wrote:
There is no 'criteria' obviously. People vote for a variety of reasons - some of them vote for their mates, some people vote the way they do because the value club football over international football and vice versa.
Either way, most people would agree that Messi and Ronaldo are the two best footballers of the past generation and also the biggest headline grabbers. It's hardly surprising they get the most votes.
I didn't say it was surprising. I just said it's a result of the way the voting is structured, and it's going to remain that way until they change the system. You pointing towards Ribery 'coming close' to breaking that tie doesn't disprove the point. It reinforces it.