Starting "CM" next season - Ramsey vs Cazorla?: Page 41 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Starting "CM" next season - Ramsey vs Cazorla?

dreamlord

Klaus wrote:
What we're lacking at the moment is not the transition between defence and attack. It's plain and simply a midfield. There's no one at the base to pass around the ball, to absorb pressure, to distribute the ball. Those aren't things you'd expect a box to box midfielder to be particularly involved in. He's there to offer a passing angle, not to build the game.

Those are pretty much the things Cazorla offers, and some more. Coq does too, but to a limited extent.

Klaus

Cazorla offers it but not the defensive positioning or the legs to get out of tricky situations. But that's what we're lacking essentially: a defensive version of Cazorla, someone who can actually play as a Spanish pivot behind Ramsey. We used to have one in Arteta.

Klaus

We actually looked better for a while when Cazorla dropped deeper and Coquelin pushed up, but Coq is a bit limited outside his pressing and hurt the transition between midfield and attack. So instead you had Sanchez and Özil drop too deep for the ball.

Temo

Qwiss! wrote:
Temo wrote:
One thing worth adding - It's not a coincidence Ramsey's dip in form comes while we play the better quality teams. For all my personal dislike for him, against the lower half teams he will deliver the goods, simply because perfect technique and sharp passing are not required as much.

Ozils dip has come against the better quality teams too and he has perfect technique and sharp passing.

Its an argument made against a lot of players, the whole "he's not as good against better teams" but its a non-starter, of course players don't look as good if the opposition is better, nearly all players. Its only the odd exception like Theo who do better in big games.

Of course, it's usually an inevitable dip. But the difference of what Ramsey offers against the top vs bottom teams is more pronounced than probably anyone else in the XI.

Klaus

Not really.

Rex

Klaus has it right here.

jones

I agree with Temo, even in 13/14 Ramsey wasn't as effective against top teams. It only makes sense because usually you have to play a more reserved game when up against the best teams, meaning your CM can't join the attack as often as he usually would. If we have a fit and firing squad (as if) we should theoretically have enough in the front four to trouble most teams.

I'd play Coquelin and Cazorla/Elneny in the middle and Ramsey on the right in the CL, he had very good games in Europe there too. Napoli comes to mind, think at Dortmund he played wide as well.

JazzG

For all his nice touches Cazorla doesn't offer much there. We need someone who will drop deep, split the CBs and pass out the back with purpose and control the game. Cazorla does not do that, he never has and never will. His best performances have come when we sit back and try to hit teams on the counter. Being a good passer and playing that position are two very different things, Ozil is a great passer but for me could never play that role. It requires a different skill set, to keep recycling possession, knowing when to switch play, able to absorb pressing, when to quicken the tempo, when to slow things down, passing through the lines etc etc. We have nobody in the squad who can play that role at the highest level. We instead find ourselves being unable to break down stubborn defences or unable to get hold of the ball when we are under pressure.

Ray

I agree we don't have anyone who can play that role, but this current team plays best when it plays on the counter, and for that you need someone who has very good technique, agility and passing/vision in central midfield. Ramsey can do that but Cazorla is better at it, Ramsey is more of the player who will get on the end of things.

jones

JazzG wrote:
For all his nice touches Cazorla doesn't offer much there. We need someone who will drop deep, split the CBs and pass out the back with purpose and control the game. Cazorla does not do that, he never has and never will. His best performances have come when we sit back and try to hit teams on the counter. Being a good passer and playing that position are two very different things, Ozil is a great passer but for me could never play that role. It requires a different skill set, to keep recycling possession, knowing when to switch play, able to absorb pressing, when to quicken the tempo, when to slow things down, passing through the lines etc etc. We have nobody in the squad who can play that role at the highest level. We instead find ourselves being unable to break down stubborn defences or unable to get hold of the ball when we are under pressure.

Reading this post you'd think we've been a midtable team in 2015. The bold part is exactly what Cazorla does in midfield and the reason we were able to beat several big teams last year.

I agree that ultimately we have to find another player for that position but since that won't happen we might as well utilise our squad to get the best out of it. I don't think Ramsey will play centrally if we're to do so.

Bold Tone

I think what Jazz is saying is that Cazorla, like Ramsey, doesn't fulfill the role of midfield general.
Point being neither of them is ideal for that position.

y va marquer

Klaus wrote:
y va marquer wrote:
Ramsey has been ok but he's nowhere near as influential and central to transitioning defence into attack as he should be

I think it's the exact opposite personally. Ramsey does this much better than Cazorla. Even yesterday when he looked dead on his feet he created most of our chances against that lot.

That's not what I've seen from watching both over the last 12 months.
Unless I see stats to prove Ramsey has created more chances per game than Caz
then I'll believe my own eyes 🙂

Klaus

The point wasn't about chance creation though, it was about transitioning between defence and attack.

Qwiss

I'd say Ramsey does create more real chances (as in good balls that split the defence and not just that stupid any pass before a shot stat). Cazorla is good at it too but just not as good as Ramsey.

Klaus

Yep, Ramsey has a terrific final ball. Above all I think he creates a lot with his movement though. We get a bit static with Santi sometimes. He'll spot the initial pass but he won't move up to offer another passing alternative once he plays it. He won't make any runs forward ahead of the ball. It's why he hasn't scored a goal from open play in like 18 months now. Özil and Giroud combine well with Ramsey because he's agile. There's always someone to put the ball to. He's got the guts to actually go for it too if he spots an opening. Frustrating as it is to watch when he's not on song and fluffs clearcut chances in front of goal, those are almost always chances we wouldn't have without him in the side.

This was written prior to the Chelsea game, but it highlights some of his contribution: https://blog.playtogga.com/aaron-ramsey-arsenals-important-midfielder/

In the seven matches since being reinstated in the starting XI, Ramsey has three goals, two assists, 10 shots on goal, 12 chances created, 15 interceptions, and 12 tackles, showcasing his ability to influence a game at both ends. Arsenal has shot to the top of the Premier League over the stretch, going 5-2-1, with Ramsey averaging nearly 18 FPL points during the run.

He's done this while playing next to Flamini, and during a time when we've missed both Sanchez and Walcott for the most part. He's barely had a breather too. He returned from a long injury absence and Wenger just threw him on and kept playing him.

y va marquer

Well my money's on Wenger re-instating the central midfield of Coquelin Cazorla if Ramsey doesn't grab the opportunity to show that he can excel there alongside Coquelin.
Hopefully he can, because we need him to be better than he is right now.
I don't say that to attack him I say hat because I expect so much more from him.

y va marquer

Klaus wrote:
The point wasn't about chance creation though, it was about transitioning between defence and attack.

Creating chances not being integral to the transitioning from defence to attack?

Klaus

y va marquer wrote:
Klaus wrote:
The point wasn't about chance creation though, it was about transitioning between defence and attack.

Creating chances not being integral to the transitioning from defence to attack?

It's not the same thing, no. Özil creates more chances than anyone in the world and he's not particularly integral to the transition between defence and attack. He usually gets the ball from someone else who handles that phase and then he goes about his business in the attacking half.

Ramsey's integral to the transition because he gets the ball forward without the attacking players dropping too deep. We always lose some of that ability whenever he's out.

y va marquer

Özil doesn't play in front of the defence in central midfield, he doesn't collect the ball from defence to create chances, Caz does.

Klaus

I'm not the one who claimed that transition between defence and attack is the same as chance creation.

« Previous Page Next Page »