Starting "CM" next season - Ramsey vs Cazorla?: Page 40 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Starting "CM" next season - Ramsey vs Cazorla?

Gazza M

caz would be getting shat on just as badly if he'd played next to flamini for the last month. you can't play with much mental or technical freedom with such a dud as your midfield partner.

and wenger shouldnt be let off the hook for letting this midfield situation deteriorate to such an extent. an arteta replacement should've been prioritised after the 13/14 season

Jed

When Wilshere comes back he walks right back into the starting XI for me. One of the few players in this squad with some passion and balls.

Gazza M

i'd play him on the right over theo, ox, and rambo. we need as much technical quality on the pitch as we can muster.

Rex

Ramsey is not, and was not, the problem; playing Flamini in midfield is what is catching up with us. Sample size is a lot smaller, but from memory Cazorla was a non factor as well when he was paired with Flamini.

Basically, Wenger is an idiot for letting this madness continue. He had the right idea last summer when he wanted Flamini to be transferred away, but when the bloke refused it was utter stupidity to keep him in an important role. Wenger identified last summer that Flamini wasn't good enough, and that is what is catching up with us. To then be on the 25th of January, almost the full transfer window, and still not having resolved the issue is downright negligent. Why fuck about with this Elneny bloke if he wasn't meant to be an immediate upgrade? If he is 'one for the future' then surely Wenger should have bought another player as well ffs! Having said that, Flamini has played better than I expected, but then my expectations were pretty damn low.

Biggus

Jed wrote:
When Wilshere comes back he walks right back into the starting XI for me. One of the few players in this squad with some passion and balls.

dreamlord

Yeah, at least with Ramsey in midfield we have some legs. A Cazorla-Flamini midfield would have been beyond disastrous.

But Ramsey should not, at all, be a starting central midfielder for us when everyone is fit. He's too inconsistent with his technique and awareness. I'm not saying Cazorla is the best option either, who knows what he's going to be like after returning from injury.

y va marquer

It is wrong to blame Flamini for Ramsey not living up to high expectations in midfield.
It is wrong to blame him for the fact that Ramsey has not excelled in the role.
Ramsey has been ok but he's nowhere near as influential and central to transitioning defence into attack as he should be and that's down to the some of the decisions he makes at key moments and an element of slopiness in his game.
That's nothing to do with Flamini.
Cazorla Flamini is a worse prospect only because it lacks a proper engine, not because Cazorla would suddenly start making the wrong decisions and getting sloppy just because Flamini was alongside him.
I guess it's impossible to let go the argument that not signing a Coquelin clone is going to cost us the league, even when yesterday showed it's a lack of reliable goal scoring options that's putting us under the most pressure.
In the drive against Flamini it has escaped everyone's attention that with 12 goals scored Giroud is our top striker, after that it's Sanchez with 6 and Ramsey with 4.
Theo and Özil have only 3 each.
Pray that Alexis stays fit as his goals are sorely needed.

Qwiss

That point about our goal scoring just makes it even more clear that Wengers decision to take Giroud off yesterday was awful.

Ray

Chelsea won it last season with Costa getting 20, Hazard getting 14 then the next being Remy on 7. I think it's more than realistic to expect Giroud, Sanchez and Walcott to get similar numbers this season. The problem has been defense and Coquelin plays a big part in that. Huge miss.

Clrnc

JazzG wrote:
At home against Spurs we were dominated in midfield with those two.

Obviously with a half dead Cazorla. I keep hearing people say Coquelin have his limitations but that is really grossly unfair on him. He has no real weaknesses as our DM and is a perfect fit for us.

In the first half, Ramsey was constantly being caught ahead of the ball and didn't have the pace to fall back, which in part is also due to how quick the Chelsea players are and in particular Willian. We really need him to be more disciplined in big games. Flamini is constantly too deep, Ramsey is constantly too high up and that create a huge gap in midfield.

y va marquer

Ray wrote:
Chelsea won it last season with Costa getting 20, Hazard getting 14 then the next being Remy on 7. I think it's more than realistic to expect Giroud, Sanchez and Walcott to get similar numbers this season. The problem has been defense and Coquelin plays a big part in that. Huge miss.

We have 37 goals this season - Leicester have 42, City 45 and Spurs 41.
We have conceded 22 to Leicester's 26, City's 23 and Spurs 19.
Our defence is not what's holding us back in our bid to put a run together.
Hopefully Alexis' return will add another dimension to our attack.
Thankfully he looked sharp yesterday.
That may also take pressure of Ramsey in terms of us relying on him coming from central midfield to score

Ray

Last 11 league games without Coquelin who came off against West Brom 13 goals conceded. The 11 games before that with Coquelin 7 goals conceded. Obviously there are other things involved but you can even see how open central midfield is right now.

Qwiss

y va marquer wrote:
Ray wrote:
Chelsea won it last season with Costa getting 20, Hazard getting 14 then the next being Remy on 7. I think it's more than realistic to expect Giroud, Sanchez and Walcott to get similar numbers this season. The problem has been defense and Coquelin plays a big part in that. Huge miss.

We have 37 goals this season - Leicester have 42, City 45 and Spurs 41.
We have conceded 22 to Leicester's 26, City's 23 and Spurs 19.
Our defence is not what's holding us back in our bid to put a run together.
Hopefully Alexis' return will add another dimension to our attack.
Thankfully he looked sharp yesterday.
That may also take pressure of Ramsey in terms of us relying on him coming from central midfield to score

We really need another winger. Someone close to Sanchez level. The goals just arent in this team and Theo is too often injured and too prone to these barron spells. And if Theo loses end product he offers too little. Keep him for the squad but we need an upgrade in the first 11.

Qwiss

Ray wrote:
Last 11 league games without Coquelin who came off against West Brom 13 goals conceded. The 11 games before that with Coquelin 7 goals conceded. Obviously there are other things involved but you can even see how open central midfield is right now.

Its clear that the drop from Coq to Flamini is too big.

When is Coq going to be back?

y va marquer

Ray wrote:
Last 11 league games without Coquelin who came off against West Brom 13 goals conceded. The 11 games before that with Coquelin 7 goals conceded. Obviously there are other things involved but you can even see how open central midfield is right now.

I didn't even think central midfield was especially secure with Coquelin - it was better yes but I have not forgetten games like West Ham.
I'm not saying that losing Coquelin is insignificant what I am saying is that it's as significant, or even more significant, that we were without Alexis and Cazorla in that time.
Our attack has struggled, but for a purple patch of Özil we'd have been in big trouble.

Temo

One thing worth adding - It's not a coincidence Ramsey's dip in form comes while we play the better quality teams. For all my personal dislike for him, against the lower half teams he will deliver the goods, simply because perfect technique and sharp passing are not required as much.

Qwiss

Temo wrote:
One thing worth adding - It's not a coincidence Ramsey's dip in form comes while we play the better quality teams. For all my personal dislike for him, against the lower half teams he will deliver the goods, simply because perfect technique and sharp passing are not required as much.

Ozils dip has come against the better quality teams too and he has perfect technique and sharp passing.

Its an argument made against a lot of players, the whole "he's not as good against better teams" but its a non-starter, of course players don't look as good if the opposition is better, nearly all players. Its only the odd exception like Theo who do better in big games.

Klaus

y va marquer wrote:
Ramsey has been ok but he's nowhere near as influential and central to transitioning defence into attack as he should be

I think it's the exact opposite personally. Ramsey does this much better than Cazorla. Even yesterday when he looked dead on his feet he created most of our chances against that lot.

What we're lacking at the moment is not the transition between defence and attack. It's plain and simply a midfield. There's no one at the base to pass around the ball, to absorb pressure, to distribute the ball. Those aren't things you'd expect a box to box midfielder to be particularly involved in. He's there to offer a passing angle, not to build the game.

Rex

We also only conceded the one goal yesterday, and to the best of my recollection it had absolutely nothing to do with Ramsey not being in position.

Flamini, however, was absolutely, one hundred percent out of position for the goal we actually conceded. Also, what on earth was Flamini doing in the sequence leading to Mertesacker being sent off?! He is in a good position, but does absolutely fuck all to make things difficult for Willian. These two instances, the most important ones in the game, sum up Flamini defensively for me; he is either out of position, or, when in position, by far too passive. He is way too content just being goal side, but once in a while you absolutely must get in there to actually try to win the ball. He works really hard, which is to his credit, but he gets very little out of it which benefits the team. That's just defensively...

Rex

Yeah, well, he DID have his midfield partner in perfect position right behind him, so I'll forgive him for taking a risk at trying to actually win the ball. Since he made the tackle, he also wasn't out of position. In hindsight though, of course it would have been better had he viewed the situation as if he were alone in midfield and just stayed on his feet.

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