Starting "CM" next season - Ramsey vs Cazorla?: Page 10 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Starting "CM" next season - Ramsey vs Cazorla?

y va marquer

In what sense or in what area in particular would you class him as being technically deficient?
I think he's slightly ponderous at times, not as quick footed as Cazorla for example but I would not class it as a technical problem.

He does appear to need more than a couple of tough competitive games to get up to speed after any kind of lay off.

Temo

It's more a case of being given more responsibility, Rex

Temo

Put simply, it's the time taken from receiving the ball to releasing it, from my personal experience your mind works as quickly as your technique lets you

y va marquer

Do you mean that it's technique that influences the mind?
That the feet are already directing the next move before any decision is made?

Ray

Ramseys also a notorious slow starter, takes him 20 - 30 mins to get into games. That isn't a problem if your in attack but in defence that's suicidal.

mdgoonah41

in my opinion, our biggest issue is the ramsey/ozil choice. hear me out.

ozil's best position is behind the striker centrally. he can still do a job wide, but its not his best position and its easier for him to get isolated. to play behind the striker, we need to either play a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-1-1. we're not going to play 4-4-1-1. if we play 4-2-3-1, then either cazorla or ramsey need to play wide to get both in the team. cazorla doesn't have ramsey's work rate and pace, but hes more disciplined and has better positioning. ramsey, when played wide, sometimes seems to get lost and drift in/out of the game. when you play ramsey deeper, he tends to vacate and leave coq isolated, and that pushes cazorla wide, where he is less involved and can't dictate the play.

i think 4-2-3-1 is the best formation to get the best out of ozil and alexis. but unless ramsey's positioning improves, im not sure you can justify putting him in the team ahead of cazorla at CM. and as a winger, is he better than ox?

for all the talk of benzema, which im still fine with, we should be the ones bidding for reus. reus at LW and alexis at RW in a 4-2-3-1 with ozil between them would be bliss. sure, we'd have giroud/walcott to play striker and thats not ideal, but i think we need a winger just as much as a striker. i love ox and think hes got huge potential, but hes missed a lot of time.

either way, im not sure what is actually going to happen here. the other option i guess is to play a narrow 4-4-2 diamond, with coq deep, cazorla and ramsey in front, ozil at 10, and then giroud/alexis central. that actually might work. but i cant see wenger trying that.

Ray

Cazorla or Ramsey should never be played out wide. You play either Ramsey-Arteta as a duo or Cazorla-Coquelin, otherwise the players don't compliment each other.

Temo

y va marquer wrote:
Do you mean that it's technique that influences the mind?
That the feet are already directing the next move before any decision is made?

Yeah, it's kind of an obvious point but how quickly you kill the ball is how much time you have to decide what to do, then there's the case of making a pass when you spot one, you don't look for passes you can't execute.

y va marquer

I hadn't noticed that Ramsey is especially slow at killing the ball.

Clrnc

Ramsey was absolutely awful today. Worst player on the pitch for me. The biggest problem is that he bombs forward too much leaving Coquelin stranded alone. If it comes off, he score some goals and all is fine, but not everyday is Sunday. We often lose our midfield shape when he does that. He needs to go back to his disciplined self like what he mentioned last november about staying back to help out our team shape more often.

His passing today is pretty off once again, but I really dislike how he slows everything down by taking too much unnecessary turns and touches.

Wenger took till the 60th minute to change things and re-install Cazorla to the middle. By the time it was pretty late to get 2 goals back but we regained control of the midfield structure and started to be on the front foot. Giroud's head clash changed our entire flow and we lost the impetus late on.

laymans

Rex wrote:
Ramsey is clearly the better central midfielder. That he was largely crap today doesn't change that. He wasn't any worse than Cazorla fwiw, and Cazorla played a fair bit in the middle too.

Nothing clear about it, or else the discussion wouldn't exist. Ramsey WAS our best central midfielder, back when he played like one. Now he plays like someone who is out there for his own stardom, OK that's not entirely true, but there's a reason they christened him Stevie Me and Ramsey wants to be just like that.

MistaT

y va marquer wrote:
I hadn't noticed that Ramsey is especially slow at killing the ball.

Two seasons ago he was, and it was why he had a stint out wide. It used to drive me mad watching his first touch lead to the ball bouncing into the air.

He's improved noticeably and it's no longer an issue IMO. What is an issue is that he tries to force it every time he gets the ball. He's far too impatient and it's only compounded by him vacating his area of the field the second we go forward.

y va marquer

@ laymans: that assessment isn't really based on any known fact about how Ramsey sees himself these days though is it?

Temo

Perhaps not killing the ball dead, which is a relatively easy skill, but certainly bringing the ball under control without breaking stride, or taking a first touch in such a way as to allow a quick pass or dribble.

My point being you'll see some games where his athleticism and heart make up for it, and some, like today, where they don't.

laymans

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2015/06/24/13031032/ramsey-i-want-to-emulate-top-class-gerrard

y va marquer

I was referring to your assessment that he was out there "for his own stardom".

Not the fact that he wants to become a top class midfielder.

"I think a top-class midfielder needs to be able to tackle, get up and down the pitch, pass, create opportunities and score goals,"

"That's why I try to do everything, that’s what I judge my game on.

"If you look at someone like Steven Gerrard, he combines all of those elements. That’s what I want to [emulate]... so that’s what I base my game on."

laymans

I did say, it's not entirely true.

Ramsey has it wrong, anyway.

It's not a top-class midfielders job to tackle, get up and down the pitch, pass, create opportunities and score goals.

It's a superheroes job to try and do all of that at the same time. Top class midfielders pick only a few and specialise in those areas.

I blame Wenger anyway, should have kept him on the right.

Shady

The way Ramsey plays, it makes me feel as though we require two centre mids behind him to keep our shape.

y va marquer

I saw Michael Cox say that the Coquelin Ramsey CM pairing doesn't have enough "retention" quality.
I agreed with that today.
Between them they sprayed too many passes astray when trying to transition from defence to attack.

Rex

It would help no end if Ramsey wasn't ahead of the ball for 80 percent of the time we were in possession. He didn't play like that only last week ffs! It is to underestimate your opponent to think you can alter your game like that IMO. His head wasn't right today, and just like at the beginning of last season he looked waaaaaay too concerned about getting on the score sheet.

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