• The Houseboat

  • Other clubs transfer thread 2015 (Latest: Man City sign De Bruyne)

Claudius wrote:

Jazz, we need to replace Flamini and Arteta. Those guys are shot. One of them definitely needs to walk out of the door this summer and the other next summer.  Would also like to bring Schniederlin so that we can stop playing Cazorla centrally. It's really one of my pet peeves about the current team. Cazorla was massive in the City game, but he really does not give us enough fit in the centre of the park. We tried this shit with Nasri. It doesn't work. Put a real man in the middle

I agree that we need another CM but we only have a finite amount of money we can spend. If Schneiderlin was head and shoulders above Coquelin it is a no brainer but I'm not sure if that is the case. I'm undecided basically....

Gunner89 wrote:

I didn't say he is dwelling. I said he's going to dwell and I have a valid basis to say that because he has dwelled on buying in that position for years. Unfortunately people have a habit of taking a 3-4 month patch as a player becoming world-class. While I'd be happy to see Coquelin maintain his form I wouldn't be gambling a season away on him being fit and in form. Maybe that's just me.

Then you also need to consider what if we spend £25m on Schneiderlin and he isn't much of an improvement on Coquelin?

We need another player who roughly offers what Coquelin does. Schneiderlin does that.

Camacho does that as well.

JazzG wrote:
Claudius wrote:

Jazz, we need to replace Flamini and Arteta. Those guys are shot. One of them definitely needs to walk out of the door this summer and the other next summer.  Would also like to bring Schniederlin so that we can stop playing Cazorla centrally. It's really one of my pet peeves about the current team. Cazorla was massive in the City game, but he really does not give us enough fit in the centre of the park. We tried this shit with Nasri. It doesn't work. Put a real man in the middle

I agree that we need another CM but we only have a finite amount of money we can spend.  If Schneiderlin was head and shoulders above Coquelin it is a no brainer but I'm not sure if that is the case.  I'm undecided basically....

Gunner89 wrote:

I didn't say he is dwelling. I said he's going to dwell and I have a valid basis to say that because he has dwelled on buying in that position for years. Unfortunately people have a habit of taking a 3-4 month patch as a player becoming world-class. While I'd be happy to see Coquelin maintain his form I wouldn't be gambling a season away on him being fit and in form. Maybe that's just me.

Then you also need to consider what if we spend £25m on Schneiderlin and he isn't much of an improvement on Coquelin?

Schneiderlin has been consistent for 3 years now. Coquelin's been good for 2-3 months. The reality is that maintaining a really high form for Coquelin would be unlikely. As we've seen Clichy NOT maintaining his stellar performances after the season he was voted into team of the year, Nasri never having a 15 goal season again, Ramsey continuing his 15-20 goal haul from last season, Mertesacker being great for 4-5 months etc. etc. As I said all good players but the outstanding form was in patches. It's a pretty ridiculous statement to suggest that Schneiderlin isn't better than Coquelin now on the basis of 3 months. And even if he wasn't then what? You'd gamble on Arteta's last legs and Flamini doing something remotely useful because Matic, Martinez etc. are not available?

Ironically the type of player you mentioned in the "Most pressing needs" thread describes Schneiderlin. A technical defensive midfield man who's comfortable playing as a sole DM as well as a slightly more expansive game with a destroyer (Wanyama).

Coquelin might very well be a flash in the pan but what if he isn't? Can we justify spending £25m on a position where the player in question is not a significant improvement on him? I've never said Schneiderlin isn't better but is he that much better we should spend big on him? We don't have £150m to spend this summer so we need to spend on what we need rather than shore up one position. Schneiderlin is a fine player but this isn't Busquets we are talking about here. We could play both in certain games but we play more games against weaker opposition than better so what happens then? The area where Schneiderlin is clearly better is his passing, ideally I'd rather have him for that but he won't come cheap. If we could get him for around £15m then yeah I'd take him but Southampton will want a lot more.

And the type of player I mentioned doesn't fit the description of him at all. I'm talking more of a player in the Gundogan/Veratti mould, guys who can dictate and run a game. Players who can put in a defensive shift when required but also compliment the attack. We don't have a single player like that in the squad, Jack is unproven + injury prone and closest thing we have is Arteta but he is past his best. I'd rather spend the money there, Arteta will do as backup for another season. He'll hardly play so should be able to keep himself fit for a longer period in the season.

Like I said I'm not completely ruling it out but if Coquelin maintains this form I can't see Wenger spending big on him. The biggest concern with Coquelin for me is his passing needs to be better.

Rayman wrote:

Camacho does that as well.

He hasn't done it for years in the PL though.

Don't need someone who has, just need suitable squad cover. PL experience is just a bonus.

people have become content to bet the farm on coquelin. he clearly deserves his place and has been great, but we need one more defensive-minded player in there. arteta and flamini are non-factors in this role now. rosicky, ramsey, wilshere, ox, ozil, and cazorla can't play a disciplined defensive game in the middle of the pitch.

JazzG wrote:

Coquelin might very well be a flash in the pan but what if he isn't?  Can we justify spending £25m on a position where the player in question is not a significant improvement on him?  I've never said Schneiderlin isn't better but is he that much better we should spend big on him?  We don't have £150m to spend this summer so we need to spend on what we need rather than shore up one position.  Schneiderlin is a fine player but this isn't Busquets we are talking about here.  We could play both in certain games but we play more games against weaker opposition than better so what happens then?  The area where Schneiderlin is clearly better is his passing, ideally I'd rather have him for that but he won't come cheap.  If we could get him for around £15m then yeah I'd take him but Southampton will want a lot more.  

And the type of player I mentioned doesn't fit the description of him at all.  I'm talking more of a player in the Gundogan/Veratti mould, guys who can dictate and run a game.  Players who can put in a defensive shift when required but also compliment the attack.  We don't have a single player like that in the squad, Jack is unproven + injury prone and closest thing we have is Arteta but he is past his best.  I'd rather spend the money there, Arteta will do as backup for another season.  He'll hardly play so should be able to keep himself fit for a longer period in the season.  

Like I said I'm not completely ruling it out but if Coquelin maintains this form I can't see Wenger spending big on him.  The biggest concern with Coquelin for me is his passing needs to be better.

Gundogan god knows if he'll truly recover his best form after a serious injury that can hamper his game for life. Given Verrati's role in the PSG team and given PSG's financial capabilities I would file that under the wish-list. If we have limited finances as you say then convincing PSG to sell Veratti would probably be our entire transfer budget and a bigger fee than Ozil. PSG have no need to sell and don't want to sell. You mention Jack is unproven. He probably is but less so than Coquelin. People are taking too much consideration to form which is obviously a lot down to hard work but also being fresh after playing so little earlier in the season. If Giroud maintained this form over the next season too he'd be on course for 30-35 goals. Like I said possible but quite unlikely. As regards Arteta I've already said earlier he's been a great servant to the club but given him getting older and he was always suspect against the really top teams or high pressing teams I'd have major doubts playing him against top 6-8 clubs.

What I can't get my head around is people actually taking 3 months of form and suggesting one of the league's best DM for 3 years won't be much of an upgrade. Maybe Aguero won't be much of an upgrade on Giroud going by his last 3 months? The reality is things can change big time over even a year. Last year Mertesacker was indispensable and so was Ramsey while Gibbs was clearly first choice at LB. You can probably say that only the players that have been consistent season in and season out are likely to be consistent again and even they have a few dips- Sanchez, Koscielny, Ozil etc. 

Watching Coquelin, who honestly thinks it's a temporary peak in form as opposed to his class?

Most of his game is fitness, durability and intelligence. Confidence is not much of an issue for a player in his position. Having recently signed a long contract, motivation might be, and that's where competition for his spot would be useful.

Injuries and fatigue are probably the biggest concern, and that depends on Wenger's common sense and ability to rotate. Coquelin seems robust, but I doubt he's got Alex Song's freaky 4000 minutes a season levels of endurance.

Burnwinter™ wrote:

Watching Coquelin, who honestly thinks it's a temporary peak in form as opposed to his class?

Most of his game is fitness, durability and intelligence. Confidence is not much of an issue for a player in his position. Having recently signed a long contract, motivation might be, and that's where competition for his spot would be useful.

Injuries and fatigue are probably the biggest concern, and that depends on Wenger's common sense and ability to rotate. Coquelin seems robust, but I doubt he's got Alex Song's freaky 4000 minutes a season levels of endurance.

I doubt you can make out wether form is temporary or long term on this basis.

Watching Ramsey, Nasri etc. when they were playing in their 6 months of outstanding form who could say if it was temporary or permanent? Clichy looked immense for an entire season and one thought he was an immediate replacement for Cole in attack and defence but it didn't last. In the last 10 years you have many names who have gone through great periods. A few have lasted. A few good months and Cavani and Schneiderlin are not good enough. Only Ronaldo and Martinez will do.

Our midfield is a hot mess. Too many games where we are just overrun. We need to play Ozil at 10. There are many days when we will need to have two robust guys behind him. Imagine if this was the case versus Monaco in the first leg. We wouldn't have had Monaco run through us over and over if we had Schniederlin and Coquelin in the centre of the park. We can afford to shake a lot of midfielders to make this happen - one or more of Arteta, Diaby, Flamini, Rosicky, etc., can be sent packing.

Gunner89 wrote:
Burnwinter™ wrote:

Watching Coquelin, who honestly thinks it's a temporary peak in form as opposed to his class?

Most of his game is fitness, durability and intelligence. Confidence is not much of an issue for a player in his position. Having recently signed a long contract, motivation might be, and that's where competition for his spot would be useful.

Injuries and fatigue are probably the biggest concern, and that depends on Wenger's common sense and ability to rotate. Coquelin seems robust, but I doubt he's got Alex Song's freaky 4000 minutes a season levels of endurance.

I doubt you can make out wether form is temporary or long term on this basis.

Watching Ramsey, Nasri etc. when they were playing in their 6 months of outstanding form who could say if it was temporary or permanent? Clichy looked immense for an entire season and one thought he was an immediate replacement for Cole in attack and defence but it didn't last. In the last 10 years you have many names who have gone through great periods. A few have lasted. A few good months and Cavani and Schneiderlin are not good enough. Only Ronaldo and Martinez will do.

Exactly. I watch Paul Scholes entire career, one of the best midfielders to ever play in English football but he had some serious ups and downs in form over the career. We've had half a season of this amazing form from Coquelin. He's fresh and he's hungry and he seen his last chance at the big time and he's grabbed it.

You start in July with pre-season, then you have the league, the CL group stages an inevitable call up to the national team. Then what? Then he needs a rest or he gets injured. And what about next January or February when we inevitably come up against a top team in the CL? We have no tactical flexibility to play tighter. Or do people really want Arteta or Flamini with another year of decline playing in a game like that? What if Ramsey picks up his annual 3-4 month injury? Who knows what Jacks fitness will be like.

We need another defensive mid. We need to sell/release Diaby and Flamini. Replace those 2 with one quality defensive mid and we have a much, much better looking midfield line up.

Claudius wrote:

Our midfield is a hot mess. Too many games where we are just overrun. We need to play Ozil at 10. There are many days when we will need to have two robust guys behind him. Imagine if this was the case versus Monaco in the first leg. We wouldn't have had Monaco run through us over and over if we had Schniederlin and Coquelin in the centre of the park. We can afford to shake a lot of midfielders to make this happen - one or more of Arteta, Diaby, Flamini, Rosicky, etc., can be sent packing.

I take you're point about the worth of Schneiderlin but disagree with your example. We wouldn't have had those two in the starting line up to stop that. There's no way anyone in their right might would be calling for two more defensively minded players in central midfield at home in a game against a team expected to sit deep and counter. One, absolutely, to stem the inevitable counter attacks and provide protection when the fullbacks are caught high up, but two at the expense of a more creative player you'd be looking at to open up their defence is madness. And even if he was a squad option, we all know Wenger isn't choosing that line up in a home game where we're on the front foot. Yes it gives us more solidity and scope for better varying our approach to games, but re-writing history that way to prove the point doesn't help the argument. 

Tam, Schniederlin is a two-way midfielder. He can do both jobs. He's just much better than anyone not named Coquelin on our team at defending.

Tam wrote:
Claudius wrote:

Our midfield is a hot mess. Too many games where we are just overrun. We need to play Ozil at 10. There are many days when we will need to have two robust guys behind him. Imagine if this was the case versus Monaco in the first leg. We wouldn't have had Monaco run through us over and over if we had Schniederlin and Coquelin in the centre of the park. We can afford to shake a lot of midfielders to make this happen - one or more of Arteta, Diaby, Flamini, Rosicky, etc., can be sent packing.

I take you're point about the worth of Schneiderlin but disagree with your example. We wouldn't have had those two in the starting line up to stop that. There's no way anyone in their right might would be calling for two more defensively minded players in central midfield at home in a game against a team expected to sit deep and counter. One, absolutely, to stem the inevitable counter attacks and provide protection when the fullbacks are caught high up, but two at the expense of a more creative player you'd be looking at to open up their defence is madness. And even if he was a squad option, we all know Wenger isn't choosing that line up in a home game where we're on the front foot. Yes it gives us more solidity and scope for better varying our approach to games, but re-writing history that way to prove the point doesn't help the argument. 

As Claudius said Scheiderlin can do both jobs as he has last season mostly alone and this season with Wanyama.

And if Wenger had both he would choose that line-up in many away games and all home games against United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Everton, Spurs, City. Additionally I also know who I'd have to close a game with a slender lead and the only thing Flamini would bring is fouls and/or yellow cards. Not sure how much football for a top club Arteta can handle. He's a year older and coming back from a major injury. His contract expires in 2 months and hasn't been renewed yet. 

Schneiderlin can do both jobs now? What are we, a midtable club?

The overrating of this guy will not take an end. God help us if we ever have such an insignificant player for the B2B role. 😆

Wonder how you get to see so much of Schneiderlin with your regular jaunts to the Basque Country?

What are you referencing G89? You keep passive aggressively banging on about Real Sociedad season ticket holders and trips to the Basque country.

I do think Schneiderlin will be a great signing if we let go of Arteta, no two ways about it. He will push himself and Coquelin to perform better too.

I am not very sure about them being paired together though. I think that's not a very good midfield, may be to shut out a game but not otherwise.