I guess we all are this morning.
Well we'll let the great man answer for himself.
News Thread 2015
banduan wrote:Returning "jihadis" who regret their misadventure complain they don't even have any copies of the Quran. Pictures of them praying show haphazard prayer directions.
Even if we said that statements from returning 'deserters' could be falsified, there's absolutely no way any observant Muslim doesn't know that you can't pray in differing directions.
The IS definitely is not all staged, I personally know a few idiots that were mislead and went to play war in the desert. But pictures like these along with awareness of countless accounts of false flag operations (especially in that part of the world) make you doubt a lot of it - regardless of whether it's just some of the infantry that doesn't care much for their alleged faith or the organisation as a whole.
Biggus wrote:y va marquer wrote:Bw's ancestors are the same as yours Biggus.
He's as close to their suffering as you are.How would you know?
If anyone's interested, my earlier ancestors are mainly farmers from County Clare on one side, who emigrated to Australia in the 1850s to the Victorian gold rush, and wound up involved in the horseracing industry by 1900 before disintegrating into a mess of lawyers, musicians and teachers.
The only ones I know about on the other side are a man who was transported as a convict from near Oxford for stealing a loaf of bread in the 1820s, and a woman who was one of the working class "butterflies" sent to Australia to marry freed convicts in the 1830s.
I'm vaguely interested in my Irish ancestry, but I'm probably more interested in the history of my family in Australia.
As an example, I found out recently that my paternal great-grandfather died under the wheels of a train at Camberwell station in Melbourne. As Catholics, my family were outraged by the fact that the Protestant coroner refused to rule it an accidental death (possibly to spite them).
As another example, my paternal grandmother's first memory was of screaming abuse at then Prime Minister Billy Hughes at a rally against the conscription of troops to fight in WWI in 1916.
Burnwinter™ wrote:If anyone's interested, my earlier ancestors are mainly farmers from County Clare on one side, who emigrated to Australia in the 1850s to the Victorian gold rush, and wound up involved in the horseracing industry by 1900 before disintegrating into a mess of lawyers, musicians and teachers.
Impeccable heritage.
Here I was thinking we all evolved from Africa.
Nope, we evolved from county Clare farmers.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/08/us-britain-protest-islam-idUSKBN0LC0VE20150208
Oh the irony, they're glad enough with free speech when it's them doing the talking.
And yet they'd happily attack the country that provides it when it suits them too.
Who have "they" attacked?
Innocent people on buses and the tube.
Well given that all these guys hAve done is peacefully protest (regardless of whether or not you believe in the cause), you're obviously referring to British Muslims in general.
Glad you've finally dropped the pretense.
Oh so giving moral support and justification for murderers is alright so long as you don't actually pull any triggers yourself.
It's about time you guys stopped living in denial.
The petition, organized by a group called Muslim Action Forum, denounced those who had produced cartoons of the prophet, calling them "an affront to the norms of civilized society".
At least they have a sense of humour.
Biggus wrote:Oh so giving moral support and justification for murderers is alright so long as you don't actually pull any triggers yourself.
It's about time you guys stopped living in denial.
They've not done anything of the sort.
But given that 'they' fall into the same bracket in your eyes, I guess the protests where they were all gathered in once place was a missed opportunity to "kill them all".
Cartoons will draw protests but the actions of ISIS don't. Funny.
Not a single woman seen...
Your point being?
Irish gunner wrote:Cartoons will draw protests but the actions of ISIS don't. Funny.
If you want a representative sample of what "British Muslims" actually think about ISIS, terrorism, etc, you'd be better off reading the press releases of the Muslim Council of Britain.
Kel Varnsen wrote:Not a single woman seen...
It must be almost enough to win you over.
No opportunities for a cold approach pickup at that rally.
Irish gunner wrote:Cartoons will draw protests but the actions of ISIS don't. Funny.
That's obviously because "we" are in league with them, plotting to kill you all.
Irish gunner wrote:Cartoons will draw protests but the actions of ISIS don't. Funny.
Meh, people were protesting about restrictions on porn production the other day and yet nothing about the actions of ISIS.
Most of us on here devote significantly more time whining about football related matters than ISIS, Ukraine, Ebola or any other issue that really matters.
Rayman wrote:Your point being?
That the muslims at these protests are backwards idiots and a joke.
Kel Varnsen wrote:Rayman wrote:Your point being?
That the muslims at these protests are backwards idiots and a joke.
And you infer that from there being no women from a single pic?
Never mind the fact that unlike some earlier sinister and atrocious protests by groups of Muslims, these seem civil and non-confrontational.
Well there were women in the protests, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11398967/Huge-crowd-of-Muslim-protesters-picket-Downing-Street-to-protest-at-Charlie-Hebdo-cartoons.html, a selective picture can be deceiving. So....backtrack?
Thank you for proving my point. Look more closely at the pictures.
Edit:
Found this.
Yesterday organisers refused to allow men and women to protest together, insisting they were segregated.
Ok, so you're point is about them being separated rather than, there are no women in the picture/protest. That's different from "no women to be seen".
Which is quite common in Jewish and Islamic traditions. So they're backwards, idiots and a joke for that?
You ought to balance it out Kel, do a bit of reportage on fascists in England or neo-Nazis in Scandinavia.
Rayman wrote:So they're backwards, idiots and a joke for that?
Yes.
Well there is no discrimination, which is more of a backwards issue than segregation.
Rayman wrote:Which is quite common in Jewish and Islamic traditions. So they're backwards, idiots and a joke for that?
Well to be fair yes.
Rayman wrote:Well there is no discrimination, which is more of a backwards issue than segregation.
otfgoon wrote:Biggus wrote:Oh so giving moral support and justification for murderers is alright so long as you don't actually pull any triggers yourself.
It's about time you guys stopped living in denial.They've not done anything of the sort.
But given that 'they' fall into the same bracket in your eyes, I guess the protests where they were all gathered in once place was a missed opportunity to "kill them all".
Of course they are, and by you denying it has proved me right about you guys (the ordinary decent westernised Muslim) living in denial.
Islam is not a religion of tolerance lucky for those protesters that they live in a tolerant society.
Burnwinter™ wrote:Irish gunner wrote:Cartoons will draw protests but the actions of ISIS don't. Funny.
If you want a representative sample of what "British Muslims" actually think about ISIS, terrorism, etc, you'd be better off reading the press releases of the Muslim Council of Britain.
Why should you pick to believe what one group of British Muslim "authorithies" say over what another group of Muslim "authorithies" does"?
You have posted and bantered with otf for years Biggus, and now you are dismissing him as an individual because of your bias towards people who are Muslim.
That's insulting, and also a dangerous way to think.
Burnwinter™ wrote:
True, easier to buy a child sex slave whose parents have been killed.
Biggus wrote:otfgoon wrote:They've not done anything of the sort.
But given that 'they' fall into the same bracket in your eyes, I guess the protests where they were all gathered in once place was a missed opportunity to "kill them all".
Of course they are, and by you denying it has proved me right about you guys (the ordinary decent westernised Muslim) living in denial.
Islam is not a religion of tolerance lucky for those protesters that they live in a tolerant society.
It's a peaceful protest that didn't even demand any sort of action, certainly didn't incite any violence and you even had the obligatory condemnation of the terror attack. I don't see how it makes any of those guys supporters of the Paris nut jobs.
That have been protests in the past that have attracted some nasty folk but this wasn't one of them.
If Muslims are in denial it's because they're on the defensive and opinions and views such as your own do nothing but exasperate the issue.
Biggus wrote:Burnwinter™ wrote:
True, easier to buy a child sex slave whose parents have been killed.
Child sex slaves you say, maybe they'll convert some Christians.
Biggus wrote:Burnwinter™ wrote:If you want a representative sample of what "British Muslims" actually think about ISIS, terrorism, etc, you'd be better off reading the press releases of the Muslim Council of Britain.
Why should you pick to believe what one group of British Muslim "authorithies" say over what another group of Muslim "authorithies" does"?
Did you actually read any of those statements?
Like the Australian Federation of Muslim Councils, these are peak bodies that are given a voice by an actual constituency of Muslim citizens. Their statements are unwaveringly clear and moderate, and they always condemn terrorist acts in stronger terms even than I would.
And then the next day some right wing blowhard trumpets "when will Muslims condemn the ____ ____?" Well, they already have, not that they need to.
The Jordanian pilot...who was bombing isis...he was Muslim too..dunno what else kel and biggus want. They gotta be clearer in their demands.
y va marquer wrote:You have posted and bantered with otf for years Biggus, and now you are dismissing him as an individual because of your bias towards people who are Muslim.
That's insulting, and also a dangerous way to think.
It sounds like you have understood nothing of my point of view throughout this discussion.
Time and again I've stressed that ISLAM ITSELF the ideology is the problem not individuals.
Muslims themselves like people everywhere will always have differing views from extremist through to peaceful though strict through to moderate.
- For the extremists I advocate death and destruction- Seek them out capture or eliminate them.
- For the peaceful though strict I advocate monitoring.
- For the moderate I advocate asking them to examine their conscience and decide what they really want and ask them for their assistance in identifying extremists.
Points 1 & 3 are standard practice for most Western governments and not controversial.
As for point 2 these people are the crux of the matter, they don't get secularism (just like the Pope doesn't get it) they are strict authoritarians who wish to manifest their religion in the public arena, and are recruiters for the lost and hopeless young men who will become the next suicide bombs.
otfgoon wrote:If Muslims are in denial it's because they're on the defensive and opinions and views such as your own do nothing but exasperate the issue.
So you might say that innocent Muslims are the victims in all this?
Not those who fear to exercise their right to free speech or those that did and paid for it with their lives.
But my views are not part of a problem of exasperation they are a natural defensive result of someone having their freedom threatened, it's the Islamists desire to bring their religion into the public arena and try to impose censorship or cower others into self-censorship either through "peaceful manifestation" on one hand and by a bullet in the head on the other who you should blame.
Moderate reasonable Muslims have a real problem now just like the Catholics did when all the child abuse scandals by church officials broke, they have to examine their own conscience and look at what they're defending and how that conflicts with their desire to live in a secular peace in an increasingly global society.
Although it's important and highly relevant I haven't really mentioned race/racism much in this discussion and I don't want to go in to it because I believe that this topic of religion is difficult enough.