News Thread 2015: Page 143 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

News Thread 2015

Kel Varnsen

The Atlantic is slightly better than the Daily mail... but a good article is a good article, regardless of where it's published or who the author is.

jones

I haven't even read the article. I'm just saying you don't pay attention to every DM article because you know what to expect. "Guilt by association" often saves you hours you would've otherwise wasted reading drivel that you've found proven wrong many times already.

y va marquer

It wasn't a particularly good article but it wasn't gutter trash either.
It's the opinion of a person who has a particular understanding of fascism.

The whole point is that it got contemptously and angrily dismissed simply because it appeared in the Atlantic.
The insinuation seems to be that the author may himself be a fascist as he's writing for a publication edited by fascists.

Bw's nose is right out of joint because of it 😆

Qwiss

Ive read plenty of good articles from The Atlantic. If you only read stuff by people you agree with 100% you'll end up a bit myopic.

jones

That's correct. At the same time I'm not going to start reading for example far right wing literature just to "expand" my horizon; usually there is a good reason why you avoid certain readings. I've seen this tendency in many, trying to balance out everything by hearing out the opposite viewpoint of the one that's objectively closest to the truth out of some misguided sense of "levelheadedness". Often enough there just is no balance in things.

y va marquer

Let's just say there aren't many questions asked in this thread and there's a smack of what I'd consider to be intellectual bullying in the air.

Burnwinter

Bullying? Give it a rest, I meant no offence. You posted a link, I read it, I pointed out some shortcomings I perceive in the Atlantic's editorial approach and since then, I've had both you and Kel accuse me of reacting on reflex.

I've spent a fair bit of time considering the form and content of right populist politics and I don't appreciate having my opinion shot down on spec any more than the next person, or being second guessed.

Moderates should be seriously concerned by advocacy of racialised, authoritarian border control. In Australia we're ahead of the curve on some of this stuff, to the point that Europe's nationalist parties are looking to our politicians' rhetoric and our government's private sector partnerships for inspiration. I don't think it's too "extreme" to call it fascism if it walks like fascism and quacks like fascism.

The trouble with outlets like the Atlantic is that no matter where the zeitgeist lies, they inevitably propagate a multivalent, conflictual view of world affairs that is falsely "resolved" in the process of rational compromise. Sadly, there's nothing particularly correct about a compromise between toxic shit and tolerable pablum.

y va marquer

I didn't get offended nor did I feel bullied.
I'm speaking of intellectual bullying in the sense that there seems to be this notion that there are different levels of authority on the truth regarding the subject of whether or not Trump is a fascist.

The guy wrote an opinion piece in The Atlantic therefore he has no claim to truth, his identity, the identity of the publication is the essential determinant of whether their opinion is true or not.

Burnwinter

My apologies then, you said you felt there was "bullying in the air".

My take on the article you linked was more "oh look, another fairly shit article from that fairly shit publication" … the David Frum mention partly because Frum is a particularly perfect example of a kind of hand-wringing advocacy of violence at which a section of the liberal right in the US excels.

To deploy the term "fascism" is a rhetorical gesture, sharply pejorative and resistant. That's how I want to respond to Trump and his racism, so I use it. There are a hell of a lot of definitions of fascism out there, and there's no shortage of definitions under which Trump would not qualify—definitions that will be selected whenever there's a desire to extend some sort of credence and legitimacy to his Presidential candidature. These are the definitions you'll see used in The Atlantic, The Washington Post, and The New Republic.

If Trump does win the Republican primary you'll see a great shift behind him by many other media outlets. He's an eccentric now, but if he becomes an official contender we'll have to hear a great deal about his acumen, his statecraft and his unique insights.

y va marquer

Here's an unsupported, unresearched theory (gut instinct) of mine - women hate Trump, he'll never be elected.

y va marquer

Oh, apart from Sarah Palin that is 🙂

jones

Women have good reason to hate him but so does a large portion of his fanbase, I reckon he'll still get a good percentage of voters among females. He still won't be elected, although I reckon it'll be more because he openly antagonised and ostracised virtually all minorities which make up about a third of the population in the US.

Kel Varnsen

Pretty sure Clinton will win it. She will dominate among women and minorities, and her numbers will improve once Bill gets out on the campaign trail. He has a lot of baggage, but he is extremely popular among liberals and moderates.

Burnwinter

It does seem likely Clinton will win it. Which is scary when you think about it.

banduan

Yup. Conservative foreign policies in domestic liberal clothes.

ElGeniodeOviedo

Clinton will win because the GOP will blow it by nominating a crazy (Trump or Cruz) instead of a generic suit (Rubio, Kasich, Christie)

The Atlantic, I have to say, is by no means a right-wing newspaper. It's much more interested in liberal identity politics than interventionist foreign policy, though it is more right-leaning in those areas

Burnwinter

The Atlantic's a typical hand-wringing right-liberal newspaper. Remember we live in a world where Hillary Clinton will probably win a "left" nomination even though her response to the diplomatic negotiation of an end to Iran's nuclear programme is "we need more sanctions".

Biggus

jones wrote:
Women have good reason to hate him but so does a large portion of his fanbase, I reckon he'll still get a good percentage of voters among females. He still won't be elected, although I reckon it'll be more because he openly antagonised and ostracised virtually all minorities which make up about a third of the population in the US.

Thats why he won't win, because the rest of us are actually the majority- Festivus, the festival for the rest of us.

flobaba

The Republicans are actively and strategically trying to disenfranchise minorities, making it increasingly difficult and more complicated for them to be eligible to vote.

Qwiss

So would people here rather see Trump or Cruz win the nomination for the Republicans?

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