News Thread 2015: Page 142 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

News Thread 2015

y va marquer

I had no prior knowledge of the political persuasion of the Atlantic's editorial staff when I posted that.
I had a fair idea that when I posted it the argument against it would focus on the motivation of the person who wrote it as opposed to what he actually wrote.

Is a Trump a fascist? Is labelling him as one even useful?
I don't know.
He's a dreadful man, with ugly and damaging ideas based on a recklessly ignorant and myopic view of the world.
Maybe we should invent a new label for him?

Klaus

Or we could just use the one that already fits, without making the mistake of thinking that he has to overthrow a government and kill thousands of people first in order to live up to it. Using Mussolini as a measuring rod like that piece in The Atlantic does has the same value as comparing people to Hitler to decide whether they're racists or not.

Trump is a part of - and a global voice for - a neo-fascist movement that has gained traction the more distance it has been able to put between itself and World War 2. Burnsy is right; the label of "fascism" is traditionally being contested most vehemently by those who subscribe to it, or at least share its dominant traits. It doesn't change the fact that Trump ticks most boxes down to a tee, from anti-immigration views to ultranationalistic ideas and populistic poliics. The pretense of advocating democracy and free markets quickly gets shown up for what it is when it comes to his views on muslims or people of colour. Identification cards, national registries that collect information about ethnic minorities, mass deportations of millions of full American citizens... no one can argue that these aren't fascistic trademarks.

Burnwinter

y va marquer wrote:
I had a fair idea that when I posted it the argument against it would focus on the motivation of the person who wrote it as opposed to what he actually wrote.

I'll get to work on my active listening then.

We can bicker about the definition of fascism all day, the point's not the definition it's the manifestation of the political qualities it encompasses.

As a leadership candidate who's seriously floated the idea of barring Muslim migration Trump has been opening a few doors that have been closed for a long time, even if he's not currently calling for an overthrow of the state or a permanent state of emergency.

Did you guys see the article floating around about contractors colour-coding the doors of apartments tenanted by asylum seekers in Middlesbrough? There's some very disturbing stuff in the wind at the moment.

Qwiss

jones

In more important news than this fascist clown the oil price has fallen below 28 dollars, primary reason for that being not OPEC and Saudi Arabia as some media outlets claim but the American fracking industry; some analysts even expect the price to fall below $20 when Iran whose sanctions have been lifted raises its own production pretty soon. The low oil price already causes havoc in many countries like Nigeria, Algeria and Venezuela, but probably most importantly it seems very likely the political situation in Saudi Arabia will deteriorate very badly very soon, especially looking at the US' new course of diplomacy with Iran.

No love at all for Saudi Arabia of course but if the Saudi government which currently runs a deficit of $100bn a year should really collapse the repercussions will not only mean civil war everywhere on the Arab peninsula but shockwaves in every OPEC country and by extension the rest of the world. At the moment the IMF predicts Saudi Arabia's reserves to last another five years with the current oil price; it's very unlikely that it won't bounce back up in that time frame but it certainly will cause some serious damage to the government and by extension their orchestrated side stages like Syria and Yemen.

Meatwad

hopefully that means they cut down on spreading their wahabbi bullshit around the world.

jones

Depends on how you define "spreading it" but it'll probably be the opposite to some extent. It's unlikely they're going to fund many more operations in Africa or Southern Russia for example but the Arab peninsula is going to suffer all the more for it as is currently shown in Yemen.

The recent mass executions are also a sign of what their domestic and foreign policy course is going to look like. Since the new 80 year old king has been hospitalised his official duties are carried out by his minister of the interior and "favourite" nephew (who even by Saudi standards is a very repressive hardliner and a trained anti-terror expert) and his defence minister, chief of the royal household and "favourite" son who by literally all accounts is extremely corrupt, greedy and cruel. Both seem intent on solving this crisis on their neighbours' doorsteps and it's far from unlikely they're going to escalate the situation further the closer they get to the brink of ruin.

Burnwinter

They spread Wahhabism pretty aggressively by funding the construction and operation of Wahhabi mosques in impoverished areas of other countries.

If your choice is between paying for your mosque yourself or having the Saudis fund it I doubt it's all that hard for some communities.

jones

I know they've been doing that for decades, I'm saying in the future they might not have the money to do that anymore and they will instead fight for their own interests in their immediate vicinity, and much more directly than building mosques.

Burnwinter

I know the budget for their generous welfare programme has contracted rapidly as a result of the oil price crash, but everyone I know who works in oil and gas seems pretty convinced the price is going to recover dramatically in the next 12-24 months—not that I reckon they know for sure.

jones

Burnwinter wrote:
I know the budget for their generous welfare programme has contracted rapidly as a result of the oil price crash, but everyone I know who works in oil and gas seems pretty convinced the price is going to recover dramatically in the next 12-24 months—not that I reckon they know for sure.

I've been working in petroleum on and off myself for the last four years roughly. Truth is since the end of 2014 we were hearing it would be any day now that the price would rebound and skyrocket to a level higher even than in mid-2014, when since then it has actually nosedived to now less than 25% of its original price. Just as it's almost inevitable that the price rises to a healthier level at some point it's virtually impossible to predict when it will happen. Plus even if your acquaintances in oil are right and the price bounces back in 24 months that will 100% mean war in several regions until then, several Arab countries and Nigeria for example will definitely be affected.

The main factor here is more or less how much money the US are willing to literally burn to dump the competition out of business because fracking companies are producing at heavy losses at the moment. It will also be interesting to see how the BRICS countries will respond to this as they were recently showing first signs of forming a more uniform bloc; while Russia and Brazil are suffering heavily under the low energy prices China and India are very happy with Brent possibly reaching a 20 year low soon. If anything it shows how fragile and dependent peace in an entire region is on the price of a commodity.

Biggus

Burnwinter wrote:
Trump seems somewhat comparable to Mussolini.

😆 Way to circumvent Godwins Law Burnsy.
I doff my hat to you sir.

Burnwinter

😆 Godwin's Law was invented for people who haven't heard of Mussolini. Not for the lofty debates of the OMITT News Thread.

Kel Varnsen

Burnwinter wrote:
The Atlantic's politics columns are edited by what might be termed US fascists - people like David Frum, former Bush speechwriter and author of the phrase 'axis of evil' ...

Why even bother reading something, when you can dismiss it simply by guilt of association nonsense... 😆

Btw, if you want a more left leaning analysis, here's a decent one:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-neiwert/trump-may-not-be-a-fascist-but_b_8973768.html

Kel Varnsen

Both party establishments being torn to pieces in this campaign.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/22/national-review-magazine-punished-after-telling-conservatives-to-shun-trump

Burnwinter

Kel Varnsen wrote:
Why even bother reading something, when you can dismiss it simply by guilt of association nonsense... 😆

I did read it, and it was the same old shit—which is why I said what I said. Not everything linked here has the impact of Prometheus giving the gift of fire to Man. Imagine how wet you'd have to be to have your mind changed by every sagging-in-the-middle expression of concern in the Atlantic.

y va marquer

I didn't post that Atlantic article with the intent of having the impact of Prometheus giving the gift of fire to Man.
I actually just Googled "is Trump a Fascist"? and that came up.
I did have an inkling that it would inspire comments on the author, I wasn't quite expecting the strength of the reaction to it.
I don't base my opinions of Trump on one post here or on one article, I've formed them over a few years having watched him in action.
For me the question still remains as to whether he is actually a fascist or as to whether classifying him as such is useful.
I think the Huff posts article digs deeper and asks those questions and for that I'm glad as I don't feel like an imbecile for not having all the answers.

arsedocmd

norm now seems to be that trump and his trumpeters would accept with pride the label of fascism saying some 'country is losing' crap and his support will rise even more.

jones

Kel Varnsen wrote:
Burnwinter wrote:
The Atlantic's politics columns are edited by what might be termed US fascists - people like David Frum, former Bush speechwriter and author of the phrase 'axis of evil' ...

Why even bother reading something, when you can dismiss it simply by guilt of association nonsense... 😆

Do you pay attention to every Daily Mail article on politics?

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