News Thread 2015: Page 112 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

News Thread 2015

Burnwinter

Kel Varnsen wrote:
At least 20% of Muslims (look at any poll or election in the Islamic world) can be categorized as Islamists. That is a massive problem within Islam and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Islamism is as bad as Fascism and Communism.

I can't work out whether you're trying to say that several hundred million Muslims are "radicalised" to the point of violence, or you think that talking as if the equivalent of a UKIP voter is a terrorist is sensible. Neither's a great look to be honest.

goon

Kel Varnsen wrote:
Loylz wrote:
So there are 300m odd Muslims running around the world dreaming about (and actually) plotting an attack. Sounds legit.

Boring straw man... Anyway, start here:
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Out of interest Kel, why is it do you think that many of these countries don't vote in 'Islamist' parties when the elections come around, considering such an overwhelming percentage support it?

Big Willie

Probably because 20% can not vote in a government or something. Either way even if it was a standardised 20% of all muslims around the world who are radicalised, there are still another 1.2Bn who aren't and that are being painted with the same brush.

That's not to say any of that is true either. I'm sure there are enough studies around to show whatever it is someone wishes to argue but from kel's link it shows that is not even true.

In most countries where the question was asked, roughly three-quarters or more Muslims reject suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians. And in most countries, the prevailing view is that such acts are never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies. Yet there are some countries in which substantial minorities think violence against civilians is at least sometimes justified. This view is particularly widespread among Muslims in the Palestinian territories (40%), Afghanistan (39%), Egypt (29%) and Bangladesh (26%).

I don't know what's going on in Bangladesh but is it any surprise that those who think violence is justified seem to all originate from those war torn areas. Even then in almost every country that was polled in that link had huge overwhelming majorities who were against violence against civilians. With many well over 80%. I guess my strawman is holding on a little bit longer though.

Similarly, the survey finds no consistent link between support for enshrining sharia as official law and attitudes toward religiously motivated violence.

In a majority of countries surveyed, at least half of Muslims say they are somewhat or very concerned about religious extremism.

But don't let that stop you kel. Keep believing that this made up figure of 20% (even if true) represents the view of the majority of muslims.

Qwiss

yuv wrote:
mdgoonah41 wrote:
the true weapon to fight terrorism, not just ISIS, is hope. when you give people hope and make them feel like they have choices, most of them will choose a life that doesn't involve the destruction of society.

That is essentially true, but also a bit naive. People must have hope, but it's not the only thing they need to have. They need to have education, basic rights and a basic level of good life. Otherwise your assumption about what most would choose... hmm.

Well yeah but you can live without water for many days, but you can’t live for a second without hope.

Kel Varnsen

Loylz wrote:
Probably because 20% can not vote in a government or something. Either way even if it was a standardised 20% of all muslims around the world who are radicalised, there are still another 1.2Bn who aren't and that are being painted with the same brush.

That's not to say any of that is true either. I'm sure there are enough studies around to show whatever it is someone wishes to argue but from kel's link it shows that is not even true.

In most countries where the question was asked, roughly three-quarters or more Muslims reject suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians. And in most countries, the prevailing view is that such acts are never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies. Yet there are some countries in which substantial minorities think violence against civilians is at least sometimes justified. This view is particularly widespread among Muslims in the Palestinian territories (40%), Afghanistan (39%), Egypt (29%) and Bangladesh (26%).

I don't know what's going on in Bangladesh but is it any surprise that those who think violence is justified seem to all originate from those war torn areas. Even then in almost every country that was polled in that link had huge overwhelming majorities who were against violence against civilians. With many well over 80%. I guess my strawman is holding on a little bit longer though.

Similarly, the survey finds no consistent link between support for enshrining sharia as official law and attitudes toward religiously motivated violence.

In a majority of countries surveyed, at least half of Muslims say they are somewhat or very concerned about religious extremism.

But don't let that stop you kel. Keep believing that this made up figure of 20% (even if true) represents the view of the majority of muslims.

So 25% of muslims don't reject suicide bombings. Thanks for making my point. Your last sentence makes no sense btw.

Kel Varnsen

The European elite...

yuv

Loylz wrote:
yuv wrote:
Muslims do, however, have a role to play in making themselves heard and distancing themselves from any hate or violence in the name of islam - there should not be a grey area left for the haters, and muslims should make it clear to both the radicals and the rest of the world that there is no issue of "world vs Islam" but only "world (including all muslims) vs terror".

I'm sorry but that's nonsense.

I tried hard to figure which part you think is "nonsense", particularly as you quote the end note, and in your text virtually repeat what I said earlier...
anyway, if it is (I took that from a later post of yours) about "painting 1.2 Bn" in certain colors, that's definitely not what I was doing (read my post, I'm not going to repeat it).
If you took the end note as a testament of culpability, then that's wrong again. The point is that they are the only ones in place to influence trends within islam, and actions (like ones you mention yourself, by key islamic figures) seeking to denounce violence etc., are absolutely vital at this time. Even if only a fraction of muslims are radical, and a fraction of the radicals actively turn to violence, they all have an environment - one which could support or object, embrace or ostracize.
These are not simple times, and the challenges ahead are anything but easy. Pretty soon the PC talk will be over, and some tough decisions will have to be taken. We've seen how ugly it could get for muslims in America, which doesn't have anything near the amount and range of muslims as in Europe. Things could get way uglier in Europe if we're not careful, and yes, I do believe muslims can help cool that wave of hostility and suspicion (without "painting" them, blaming them, or any such).

Gurgen

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/08/31/the-other-france?intcid=mod-most-popular

Great read with a lot of different perspectives on things.

lorddulaarsenal

Think it's time to go in and place Syria under military control. Create safe zones for the civilians and then go all Team America on ISIS

That or infiltrate them and get them ALL to do their suicide bombings at the same time, giving the goodies a heads up - then that will be that. No more ISIS

Ray

I wouldn't trust America with the middle east, they're the ones who created this whole mess.

Meatwad

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
Think it's time to go in and place Syria under military control. Create safe zones for the civilians and then go all Team America on ISIS

That or infiltrate them and get them ALL to do their suicide bombings at the same time, giving the goodies a heads up - then that will be that. No more ISIS

nah, go all team europe on their ass. i'm tired of my country doing stupid shit like that and making things worse.

Burnwinter

Thanks for that Gurgen—really interesting feature. Recalibrated a couple of drifting assumptions for me.

lorddulaarsenal

No way this can be stopped peacefully unfortunately

y va marquer

To my mind the blame for the murders in Paris lies solely and unambiguously with the seven men who last Friday night made the decision to pull the triggers and detonate the bombs that killed people so desperately unfortunate as to be in those randomly chosen places at that particular time - soft targets for men full of rage and hate.

Their backgrounds, the circumstances of their lives, do not lessen their personal guilt or dilute the fact that their actions were as a result of choices they freely made.
They were not driven to this by the people they murdered, they were not driven to this by their environment, they were not driven to this by intolerable cruelty, injustice and torture at the hands of the French state.

I can only suppose that like all fanatics simply observing a faith was not enough for them - hatred of humanity, lack of empathy, rage at their own impotence I would suppose to be the motivating factors that spurred them on.
I regret that they did not live to spend every day for the rest of their lives in solitary confinement forced into contemplation of the horror, terror, destruction, trauma and pain that they inflicted on individual people, not some faceless state or idea of what that state represents.

As for what to do to prevent more attacks - I don't know.
I understand that a display of military might versus ISIS would be seen as attacking the heart of the darkness but would it really wipe them out?
Would it involve even more death and terror being inflicted on innocent civilians, more people displaced?
I think it would.
I'm inclined to think that the best course of action is to root out and neuter the cells here in Europe, zero tolerance for those suspected of being involved or for people who support or protect them.

lorddulaarsenal

Some of the accounts from folk who escaped the Batters with their lives are very disturbing

Not sure how I would have reacted in that situation. The old lie down n play dead tactic must take some nerve

Big Willie

yuv wrote:
Loylz wrote:
I'm sorry but that's nonsense.

I tried hard to figure which part you think is "nonsense", particularly as you quote the end note, and in your text virtually repeat what I said earlier...
anyway, if it is (I took that from a later post of yours) about "painting 1.2 Bn" in certain colors, that's definitely not what I was doing (read my post, I'm not going to repeat it).
If you took the end note as a testament of culpability, then that's wrong again. The point is that they are the only ones in place to influence trends within islam, and actions (like ones you mention yourself, by key islamic figures) seeking to denounce violence etc., are absolutely vital at this time. Even if only a fraction of muslims are radical, and a fraction of the radicals actively turn to violence, they all have an environment - one which could support or object, embrace or ostracize.
These are not simple times, and the challenges ahead are anything but easy. Pretty soon the PC talk will be over, and some tough decisions will have to be taken. We've seen how ugly it could get for muslims in America, which doesn't have anything near the amount and range of muslims as in Europe. Things could get way uglier in Europe if we're not careful, and yes, I do believe muslims can help cool that wave of hostility and suspicion (without "painting" them, blaming them, or any such).

Yuv, I was only responding to that last end note. Don't disagree with anything you said otherwise. Unfortunately I think you're right. Things probably will get worse on both sides with more resentment being shown towards Muslims after actions like the other night and more becoming disillusioned and having their heads turned by these people.

What I didn't agree with is people having to speak out as if they are somehow responsible for what these nut jobs do. As if they have to prove they don't believe in these actions if they don't. I know you didn't say that but this is a line that's repeated often enough.

People have free will commit whatever crimes they want but the responsibility for those actions should rest solely on their shoulders. I agree it's good that people in places of influence need to speak out about these people and their actions but it's not the responsibility of the common people.

Then again with the resources available and the amount of information that is easily accessible with a bit of research to anyone who's bothered, I'm not so sure anyone who believes that these guys represent what Islam is about can be convinced otherwise by people speaking out.

Once people develop these biases it's very hard to get them to ignore any preconceived ideas and think objectively. People generally pick and choose what information they read and take in to those views and facts that reaffirm what they already believed and anything that says the opposite is brushed aside.

Kel Varnsen wrote:
So 25% of muslims don't reject suicide bombings. Thanks for making my point. Your last sentence makes no sense btw.

The biggest problem with that is that there is a difference between not rejecting suicide bombings and supporting them. You choosing to add the votes of people who abstain from answering or who give neutral answers to those who support these actions is disingenuous. In the same way one could argue that less than 10% of Muslims support suicide bombings. But that wouldn't suit your agenda would it?

Big Willie

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
Some of the accounts from folk who escaped the Batters with their lives are very disturbing

Not sure how I would have reacted in that situation. The old lie down n play dead tactic must take some nerve

Yup, would be really hard to even think like that in the heat of the moment. Plus any sudden movement and you'd probably be a very easy target. It's so unfortunate what happened.

Y va, I agree with the general sentiment of your post. However I do think that solitary confinement is too good for these people. These are the kinds of people who deserve to be sent to Guantanamo Bay and the like to be "interrogated" even if they don't know anything. Despicable cretins who took (or were given for those that were killed) the easy way out. Honestly feels like things will only get worse over time. Not sure how to even go about weeding them out. Even the ones that are in Europe.

y va marquer

I would not say that the men who murdered 132 people in Paris on Friday are "nut jobs" - that too absolves them of responsibility.
They were not insane, they knew exactly what they were doing.

Big Willie

y va marquer wrote:
I would not say that the men who murdered 132 people in Paris on Friday are "nut jobs" - that too absolves them of responsibility.
They were not insane, they knew exactly what they were doing.

Just a word yves, wasn't meant literally. Could use fucking cunts instead.

Qwiss

I think the EU needs to form its own central intelligence agency and fund the shit out of it.

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