The Wishlist: Page 595 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

The Wishlist

Qwiss

I was talking about United.

QuincyAbeyie

They'd definitely rather come here than Everton.

Klaus

Only in the same sense that they'd theoretically prefer Everton to Bournemouth. They'd have zero interest in us or Everton.

QuincyAbeyie

Klaus wrote:
Only in the same sense that they'd theoretically prefer Everton to Bournemouth. They'd have zero interest in us or Everton.

Yeah, okay. So you could also say that he'd no more join us than Skelmersdale United.

Klaus

Everton just seemed like a better example than Skelmersdale United since they're actually playing in the same league and are close to us in the table but clearly behind the Champions League clubs. But yeah, sure, if you want to pretend to be obtuse as fuck you can say that.

jones

To be fair Özil signed for us in a similar situation back in 2013. Sure we had CL but our team was arguably even worse than it is now, and neither Isco nor Casemiro have the level of profile Özil had back then

Clrnc

Nah our situation now is alot worse than in 2013. Squad wise, morale wise, reputation wise and everything. Don't even have a legendary manager pulling power too

Klaus

I think so too Clrnc. No manager pull, no Champions League pull, no money to blow, third year in a row in Europa League, and our rivals are significantly better than back then.

Edit: And this is not me going out of my way to shit on Arsenal; I just think it's a result of having been stuck on this level for a while. We're beneath the cutoff point for what players like them would find acceptable. There are other players we can sign though, so directing our energy towards them instead of hoping that Casemiro and Isco might become available seems like a better strategy.

jones

No way that's just decency bias. In 2012 we've possibly hit our nadir under Wenger, when Cazorla had an off day we basically were a mid table outfit and easily the worst ever Arsenal side I've seen

Gibbs bombing down the wing only to cut in and pass it back to Merte, Arteta was pretty much our entire midfield as Ramsey was still mediocre and most of our attack was donkey Giroud and the pirate Gervinho. The most exciting things all season was the promise Diaby showed early on before his inevitable injury and Gnabry during the couple minutes he got

jones

Klaus wrote:
I think so too Clrnc. No manager pull, no Champions League pull, no money to blow, third year in a row in Europa League, and our rivals are significantly better than back then.

Edit: And this is not me going out of my way to shit on Arsenal; I just think it's a result of having been stuck on this level for a while. We're beneath the cutoff point for what players like them would find acceptable. There are other players we can sign though, so directing our energy towards them instead of hoping that Casemiro and Isco might become available seems like a better strategy.

We had absolutely no money back then too remember, everyone was strengthening and our deals that summer until Özil were Sanogo and Flamini on frees. Not saying our current situation is ideal but we tend to dramatise the present, might be that we've grown apathetic over the years but watching us in 2012 was so much worse than today it's not even close imo.

Clrnc

But you are only as good as your peers show you to be. We still finished 4th in the UCL, have a good cash balance and can spend big on players. We have a manager to show them our masterplan and ambition after a difficult period of stadium move. We definitely have money to splash as proven by Dick Law interviews and our account balances, we chose not to till Ozil became available.

Don't even get my started on our current situation...

Klaus

I think you remember what you want to remember, Jones. Yes, we were in a bad place and had been ever since van Persie left, but the facts are that we had a living legend managing us and we had qualified for Champions League something like 16 years in a row. We had an undeserved reputation of playing great football, but a reputation all the same, and our former glory still wasn't too far behind us. That's the sort of minimum consistency that feels bankable to someone taking a step down. We were well positioned to kick into another gear and become a force again. Even then we had to rely on Wenger's personal relationship with Özil to make it happen, but depending on how better clubs chose to do their business we had a chance to pick up departing players from Real and Barcelona. That was more than half a decade ago though. This summer our only unbroken run is the one in Europa League, which is currently the longest of any English club.

Clrnc

Claudius

Klaus wrote:
I think so too Clrnc. No manager pull, no Champions League pull, no money to blow, third year in a row in Europa League, and our rivals are significantly better than back then.

Edit: And this is not me going out of my way to shit on Arsenal; I just think it's a result of having been stuck on this level for a while. We're beneath the cutoff point for what players like them would find acceptable. There are other players we can sign though, so directing our energy towards them instead of hoping that Casemiro and Isco might become available seems like a better strategy.

I think we can rectify it quite quickly. But it takes bold action. It would take 2 actions.
First, get a new manager. There are 2 things about Emery that are a concern. He isn't a drawcard for players the way Wenger was for guys like Ozil even when we weren't big. And he doesn't have a style fans can buy into. Both Klopp and Guardiola possess those qualities. We need a guy like that.
Second, rebuild the squad by going after the most saleable assets. We need to accept that the players the fans want to sell are also the players least likely to be bought by other clubs. So we need to rebuild using other assets like Lacazette, Xhaka, Chambers, etc who are valuable and would be more desirable to counterparts in trades

jones

Klaus wrote:
I think you remember what you want to remember, Jones. Yes, we were in a bad place and had been ever since van Persie left, but the facts are that we had a living legend managing us and we had qualified for Champions League something like 16 years in a row. We had an undeserved reputation of playing great football, but a reputation all the same, and our former glory still wasn't too far behind us. That's the sort of minimum consistency that feels bankable to someone taking a step down. We were well positioned to kick into another gear and become a force again. Even then we had to rely on Wenger's personal relationship with Özil to make it happen, but depending on how better clubs chose to do their business we had a chance to pick up departing players from Real and Barcelona. That was more than half a decade ago though. This summer our only unbroken run is the one in Europa League, which is currently the longest of any English club.

We all remember stuff the way we want it to, I'm not going to pretend it isn't that way. Like Nietzsche says when memory and pride fight the latter always wins. Maybe I'm fundamentally optimistic who knows, I can only give my honest account of what I think is currently the case and what we looked like in 2013 before the Özil news broke.

As for the arguments pro 2013 the living legend was already way past his best by that time and our rep wasn't all that either, remember the prats at Dortmund making fun of each other for being linked to us? I conceded CL as a factor we had then over today but other than that I don't think today's as bad as back then especially squad wise. We were told back then we had no money until we suddenly did and I suspect the same is true today. Back then we had the widely publicised cloud of eight or nine years of no trophies too.

Players still want to move here. Ziyech who was the best attacker of a CL semi final team seems like he's about to do an Odemwingie and drive around the Emirates looking for a way in while possibly the biggest midfield talent of Europe in de Jong said days ago if it weren't for Barcelona coming for him now he would have preferred a move to Arsenal too. Obviously we're being horribly run right now but that's on the management, and we're basically debating this under the premise that our management would actually contact players to get them to sign. If we actually contacted Isco or Casemiro (maybe not the latter but why him anyway, had a poor season but doesn't look like he's being forced out) we definitely would be in with a shout, CL or not it's still Arsenal a massive name in world football.

Klaus

We can definitely still attract players, and I'm a little dumbfounded over why we haven't moved for someone like Ziyech yet. I suspect it's because we're genuinely trying for Zaha, but that's a risky gamble and it's probably going to end up costing us. I can't imagine Palace will give in when our valuations are 40 million apart.

I think Claude is right too in that things can change quickly. If we had made Champions League we would probably be looking at a different summer right now. But until we start making progress again I think players above a certain level are shut off from us because we're not even in the right ballpark in the short term, and there's the risk we might regress even further in the long term. United can't seem to sign any stars either despite all their money, so they have resorted to grossly overpay for quality players at smaller clubs instead.

Ray

I don't think we have actually got any worse, our rivals have just got better and we have stood still. This squad would still get into top 4 before Liverpool/Spurs became challengers.

QuincyAbeyie

Klaus wrote:
Everton just seemed like a better example than Skelmersdale United since they're actually playing in the same league and are close to us in the table but clearly behind the Champions League clubs. But yeah, sure, if you want to pretend to be obtuse as fuck you can say that.

If showing that your attempt at comparing our desirability to that of Everton is nonsensical by inserting a Sunday league team that still fits the logic of your argument is obtuse as fuck, sure, I'll be that.

Gazza M

Klaus wrote:
We can definitely still attract players, and I'm a little dumbfounded over why we haven't moved for someone like Ziyech yet. I suspect it's because we're genuinely trying for Zaha, but that's a risky gamble and it's probably going to end up costing us. I can't imagine Palace will give in when our valuations are 40 million apart.

I think Claude is right too in that things can change quickly. If we had made Champions League we would probably be looking at a different summer right now. But until we start making progress again I think players above a certain level are shut off from us because we're not even in the right ballpark in the short term, and there's the risk we might regress even further in the long term. United can't seem to sign any stars either despite all their money, so they have resorted to grossly overpay for quality players at smaller clubs instead.

Overmars just said he's baffled at the lack of movement around ziyech. He's a bit of a tweener, not quite a 10 and not quite a winger. I think we're after someone more direct. Feels a bit like mahrez, a deal that could easily be done late in the window if we're out of options

Klaus

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Everton just seemed like a better example than Skelmersdale United since they're actually playing in the same league and are close to us in the table but clearly behind the Champions League clubs. But yeah, sure, if you want to pretend to be obtuse as fuck you can say that.

If showing that your attempt at comparing our desirability to that of Everton is nonsensical by inserting a Sunday league team that still fits the logic of your argument is obtuse as fuck, sure, I'll be that.

It's only nonsensical if you're dumb enough to think that the point was that there are no other inherent differences between any clubs that aren't good enough to attract Real Madrid players. But you're not really. You're just pretending to be obtuse like usual.

Gazza M wrote:
Klaus wrote:
We can definitely still attract players, and I'm a little dumbfounded over why we haven't moved for someone like Ziyech yet. I suspect it's because we're genuinely trying for Zaha, but that's a risky gamble and it's probably going to end up costing us. I can't imagine Palace will give in when our valuations are 40 million apart.

I think Claude is right too in that things can change quickly. If we had made Champions League we would probably be looking at a different summer right now. But until we start making progress again I think players above a certain level are shut off from us because we're not even in the right ballpark in the short term, and there's the risk we might regress even further in the long term. United can't seem to sign any stars either despite all their money, so they have resorted to grossly overpay for quality players at smaller clubs instead.

Overmars just said he's baffled at the lack of movement around ziyech. He's a bit of a tweener, not quite a 10 and not quite a winger. I think we're after someone more direct. Feels a bit like mahrez, a deal that could easily be done late in the window if we're out of options

Yeah, hopefully. I didn't watch him a lot last season but I have a few reservations about him. You have to say he's terrific value for money though, which is precisely what we should be looking for this summer.

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