Sin-bin over yellow cards: Page 2 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Sin-bin over yellow cards

Pepe LeFrits

I think it's got a lot of potential, it'd have to be a sliding scale of time dependent on the severity of the infringement though.

Yellow cards don't really encourage discipline, hence players regularly 'taking' a yellow. I think when a player deliberately takes out an opponent to stop a really promising counter attack, 15-20 minutes in the sin bin would be an appropriate punishment. A yellow clearly isn't, otherwise they wouldn't so gladly take it.

A 5 minute stay in the sin bin for less severe infringements would be appropriate; teams often spend that much time playing with 10 men due to a player receiving treatment and it doesn't completely alter the dynamics of the game.

goon

I think it's a terrible idea to put more responsibility on referee's to make correct judgements, they're already useless as it is with the basic system as we have it. Next thing you know you'll have refs avoiding giving a red because a sin bin is the easier decision etc.

And what are the percentage of yellows that are taken intentionally? I'd say it's a tiny percentage with the large majority either an accident or not even worthy of a yellow.

Like I said, can of worms. It would never last a season, if that.

Pepe LeFrits

otfgoon wrote:
I think it's a terrible idea to put more responsibility on referee's to make correct judgements, they're already useless as it is with the basic system as we have it. Next thing you know you'll have refs avoiding giving a red because a sin bin is the easier decision etc.

And what are the percentage of yellows that are taken intentionally? I'd say it's a tiny percentage with the large majority either an accident or not even worthy of a yellow.

Like I said, can of worms. It would never last a season, if that.

Arguing against improving a ref's power to influence the game justly because it also means they can fuck it up more too is totally flawed. In that case we should abolish red cards and penalties too, sure the refs can't be trusted. In fact lets get rid of refs altogether.

Teams get away with a certain quotient of cheating in every game because the system doesn't adequately punish them. At best it ends up benefitting a team other than the one that suffers the adverse effects of being cheated against. At worst you have players gaming the system further to pick which games they miss.

goon

It's not flawed at all, you give them as much responsibilty as they can handle. It's the same with any other job. Even now with the responsibility they already have many people think they need help of video technology so it makes no sense to make things even more complecated for them.

You can't get rid of cheating, that's just the way it is. Currently yellows and reds are the best way to curb it and if someone can thing of a way to improve the system I'm all for it, but not in a way that comes with a massive list of side effects. The negative consequences would far outweight the positives.

Segway

It works in lower league level football but wouldn't work at the top level. The decisions of the referees will have an even bigger impact on the course of the game and I think most of us would agree that would be disastrous.

Pepe LeFrits

I don't see why the option of benching a player for a few minutes is so much more responsibility than only having the option of a largely meaningless yellow or the nuclear option of a red. If anything it'd provide a much less contentious middle ground and save a load of controversy over harsh red cards.

goon

Or give them an excuse not to show a red?

You're a terrible website admin peps and judging by this you'd make a pretty shoddy football administrator too.

Qwiss

You've got 3 or 4 cards per game. So thats 3 or 4 times a match with a sin bin happening.

In reality referees will give less cards, yellow and red.

As for the keeper with a red card and a penalty how often does that actually happen? And when it does you've removed not a goal scoring opportunity but and almost certain goal. This would give every keeper caught one on one licence to bring down the attacker and take their chances on a penalty.

Pepe LeFrits

otfgoon wrote:
Or give them an excuse not to show a red?

Wouldn't be such a big deal anyway because they'd be off the field regardless.

There'd be an adjustment period like with any rule change like the backpass rule or added subs, but it'd improve the game. Players would be less willing to foul once they started seeing their team being forced to spend five minutes under the cosh, and tactics would adapt to the new ebb and flow of the game.

No one is going to convince me that sending off van Persie against Barca for perceived time wasting is a better solution to letting him cool his heels for five minutes.

Burnwinter

Why focus on the example of a laughably unjust yellow-to-red like that though?

As Qs says, you'd be better off thinking about the weird disruptions to every match from regular old yellow cards that this rule would bring. Bad and inelegant idea.

Pepe LeFrits

Burnwinter wrote:
Why focus on the example of a laughably unjust yellow-to-red like that though?

As Qs says, you'd be better off thinking about the weird disruptions to every match from regular old yellow cards that this rule would bring. Bad and inelegant idea.

Because it's a valid example of the power that a ref already wields: he can send off a player for two extremely minor incidents and legitimately claim he had no choice, whereas with a sin bin he'd have less power in such a situation; the rules would likely only allow him to put the player off for 10-15 mins total for the two infringements.

The current rules are far more inelegant and imo if neither system was in place very few would see the yellow/red as the better system. One is far more logical: break the rules, go off the field for a period that fits the severity of the infringement, instead of break the rules, go off the field permanently or break the rules, nothing happens but if you break the rules again, off the field permanently, regardless of severity.

Qwiss

Its a poor example because it was the wrong decision. I'd rather see an improvement in refereeing and more help for them to make decisions. That should include video panels, goal line tech and any thing else that helps fairly enforce the current rules of the game (without disrupting the flow of the game).

Pepe LeFrits

qs! wrote:
Its a poor example because it was the wrong decision. I'd rather see an improvement in refereeing and more help for them to make decisions. That should include video panels, goal line tech and any thing else that helps fairly enforce the current rules of the game (without disrupting the flow of the game).

Whether it was the correct decision is irrelevant but if it was the wrong one that only serves to show how a sin bin would be a better system. A sliding scale of punishment options reduces the ability of the ref to destroy the game, compared to the current all-or-nothing system.

Burnwinter

You've got two values you want to improve: fair play and fair results.

A sin-bin won't help you much to get fairer results, because the incentives to commit a professional foul that would earn a yellow or injure a player are still there even if there's a quarter-hour penalty attached.

Who really thinks a defender off the field for fifteen minutes is worth the same as a one-on-one on the counter?

And it won't help you as much to achieve generally fairer play as formal, specific retroactive suspensions for certain categories of cheating, professional fouls and dangerous play.

The formality would stigmatise offenders: just imagine the extra reputational harm that being an "official diver" would do Bale or Young. And the suspensions would lose players respect at their clubs and among the fans.

Bold Tone

I accept many of the cons, if it is a straight replacement for the yellow, but not the defence of shit refs.
Also Pep raised an interesting point ie a sliding scale of punishment to cover levels of severity.
The temporary sending off (orange card?) as an extra weapon for the ref.

Rex

Preferably, there would be a combination of several suggestions from you guys. It should be like hockey for my money; you have the extended video technology available to the refs (but in an altered form), you have the sliding scale sin bins, you have retrospective punishment.

Bold Tone

Is sin-binning effective in Ice Hockey or will it destroy the football spectacle as has, previously, been mentioned?

Pepe LeFrits

Burnwinter wrote:
You've got two values you want to improve: fair play and fair results.

A sin-bin won't help you much to get fairer results, because the incentives to commit a professional foul that would earn a yellow or injure a player are still there even if there's a quarter-hour penalty attached.

Who really thinks a defender off the field for fifteen minutes is worth the same as a one-on-one on the counter?

And it won't help you as much to achieve generally fairer play as formal, specific retroactive suspensions for certain categories of cheating, professional fouls and dangerous play.

The formality would stigmatise offenders: just imagine the extra reputational harm that being an "official diver" would do Bale or Young. And the suspensions would lose players respect at their clubs and among the fans.

I'm all for retrospective punishment but that's a separate issue.

A sin bin would offer the ref the ability to appropriately sanction minor offences, which they can't do at the moment. Yellow cards either offer too little punishment or too much.

Qwiss

Minor offences shouldn't result in you being down to 10 men though. Thats insane.

Aparamesh

Biggus wrote:
Sin Bins are a stupid idea, football is not rugby where being a man up is a huge advantage, in football a team can and will just park the bus for 15 minutes,it will ruin games.
Red cards for fouls in the penalty area are wrong since the goal scoring opportunity is restored yellow is enough.
Cup holders should at least go into a qualifying round.

Agree with these views.

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