Youth team development: Page 140 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Youth team development

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert

Reiss is the real deal.

jones

Bold Tone wrote:
Jed wrote:
In Guendouzi and Nelson we've got 2 of the best teenage prospects around.

Biased much?
I'm more inclined to agree with this article below and i'm assuming that's what you meant as you couldn't say that with a straight face to Mbappe or Alexander-Arnold.
https://www.goal.com/en-gb/lists/nxgn-2018-the-50-best-teenagers-in-the-world/1uzkmt4w432v813xuj6bgxv164#cb0camm3b1cv12pb3167urcs1

e: Even narrowing it down to those that haven't cracked the first team, there's Phil Foden, Yacine Adli, Rhian Brewster and Hudson-Odoi who are very good prospects.

Nelson is starting for a team in the CL. The others in your post barely compare, some of them haven't even had their professional debuts

Also is the bold part some joke that I'm missing?

Bold Tone

My point is not a judgement of Nelson but a scrutiny of the statement that Guendouzi and Nelson are 2 of the best teenage prospects around.
The "joke" you do not get, is similarly aged players ahead of them, when it comes to cementing their places in their respective teams.
Using your logic, i could say Nelson cannot get into a Europa team and that's why he is on loan to a lower level team.
This is reflected by Hoffenheim being the 3rd lowest ranked Champions League side.

Viktoria Plzeň (CZE)
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 45

Club Brugge (BEL)
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 50

Galatasaray (TUR)
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 51

Young Boys (SUI)
group stage debut
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 74

Internazionale Milano (ITA)
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 83

Hoffenheim (GER)
How they qualified: 3rd in Bundesliga
group stage debutants
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 99

Crvena zvezda (SRB)
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 119

AEK Athens (GRE)
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 123

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2563715.html

goon

Mbappe isn’t a prospect by any definition of the word.

As for the others, what criteria are you using to suggest that they’re a level above?

Bold Tone

I was replying to the comment that "Nelson is starting for a team in the CL" so the argument that "Mbappe isn’t a prospect" is having it both ways.
Also do Foden or Adli count as prospects because the teams they play for have much better players whereas Mbappe and Alexander-Arnold don't because they've broken through?

goon

We’re just being pedantic now, it’s clear where Jed was coming from.

jones

Bold Tone wrote:
My point is not a judgement of Nelson but a scrutiny of the statement that Guendouzi and Nelson are 2 of the best teenage prospects around.
The "joke" you do not get, is similarly aged players ahead of them, when it comes to cementing their places in their respective teams.
Using your logic, i could say Nelson cannot get into a Europa team and that's why he is on loan to a lower level team.
This is reflected by Hoffenheim being the 3rd lowest ranked Champions League side.

Viktoria Plzeň (CZE)
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 45

Club Brugge (BEL)
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 50

Galatasaray (TUR)
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 51

Young Boys (SUI)
group stage debut
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 74

Internazionale Milano (ITA)
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 83

Hoffenheim (GER)
How they qualified: 3rd in Bundesliga
group stage debutants
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 99

Crvena zvezda (SRB)
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 119

AEK Athens (GRE)
UEFA coefficient ranking (end of 2017/1: 123

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2563715.html

No the joke was that you put Mbappé and that Liverpool full back in one sentence. Ones a kid who's decent going forward but can barely defend the other is already world class and would start anywhere.

Also I'm not sure why you're pulling out those coefficients like they mean anything. Hoffenheim aren't CL contenders but they're obviously better than the likes of AEK, they finished 3rd in the league ahead of Dortmund after all.

Bold Tone

The only reason they are in the same sentence is they are both teenagers who have progressed into the first teams of Champion's League sides which you used as a supporting argument for Nelson.
e: The reason i added the coefficients link was highlighting the obvious that qualifying for CL does not mean the team is better than all Europa teams.

jones

Yeah but the point is other than youtube clips of these talents tearing it up vs kids and reserves, there's no indicator how good they are since they haven't forced themselves into the first team. All those mentioned in your edit have a combined 30 minutes of professional experience while Nelson has four goals in four games of top flight football this season, I'm not even as high on him as some others but there's really little doubt that he's at least in that top tier

QuincyAbeyie

Following Bold Tone's UEFA coefficient it would be better if Nelson started for Viktoria Plzen than Inter.

Bold Tone

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Following Bold Tone's UEFA coefficient it would be better if Nelson started for Viktoria Plzen than Inter.

I wonder who made up those coefficients then and why clubs agree to be judged on them.
Are Inter complaining?

Bold Tone

jones wrote:
Yeah but the point is other than youtube clips of these talents tearing it up vs kids and reserves, there's no indicator how good they are since they haven't forced themselves into the first team. All those mentioned in your edit have a combined 30 minutes of professional experience while Nelson has four goals in four games of top flight football this season, I'm not even as high on him as some others but there's really little doubt that he's at least in that top tier

You sure about that?

This is the list i posted, btw.
https://www.goal.com/en-gb/lists/nxgn-2018-the-50-best-teenagers-in-the-world/1uzkmt4w432v813xuj6bgxv164#cb0camm3b1cv12pb3167urcs1

QuincyAbeyie

Bold Tone wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Following Bold Tone's UEFA coefficient it would be better if Nelson started for Viktoria Plzen than Inter.

I wonder who made up those coefficients then and why clubs agree to be judged on them.
Are Inter complaining?

Do you not realize or do you choose to ignore how the rankings work? Sarpsborg are 9th in the Norwegian league and they will be higher rated than all the teams in the PL that have not been in Europe for some years. It's easier to get points in lesser leagues because in the good leagues you have more competition for the European tournaments. It isn't a rating of the best teams. Bookies rightly wouldn't have Plzen or Young Boys as favorites if they played Inter.

Bosscielny

I’m guessing that when he says:

jones wrote:
All those mentioned in your edit have a combined 30 minutes of professional experience

He’s referring to the players in your edit.

Bold Tone wrote:
e: Even narrowing it down to those that haven't cracked the first team, there's Phil Foden, Yacine Adli, Rhian Brewster and Hudson-Odoi who are very good prospects.

Not a list of 50 players that i’m assuming includes a world cup winner and a fullback who played in a champions league final.

I could be wrong though.

Bold Tone

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Bold Tone wrote:
I wonder who made up those coefficients then and why clubs agree to be judged on them.
Are Inter complaining?

Do you not realize or do you choose to ignore how the rankings work? Sarpsborg are 9th in the Norwegian league and they will be higher rated than all the teams in the PL that have not been in Europe for some years. It's easier to get points in lesser leagues because in the good leagues you have more competition for the European tournaments. It isn't a rating of the best teams. Bookies rightly wouldn't have Plzen or Young Boys as favorites if they played Inter.

I only posted the coefficients in response to
"Nelson is starting for a team in the CL. The others in your post barely compare, some of them haven't even had their professional debuts"
By all means, feel free to post a better ratings system as that was a 10 second google search job.

QuincyAbeyie

We don't need a rating system to say that teams qualified to Champions League in the Bundesliga are better than many other teams in Europe. There are some statements that can be said without having to back it up with stats.

Bold Tone

Bosscielny wrote:
I’m guessing that when he says:

jones wrote:
All those mentioned in your edit have a combined 30 minutes of professional experience

He’s referring to the players in your edit.

Bold Tone wrote:
e: Even narrowing it down to those that haven't cracked the first team, there's Phil Foden, Yacine Adli, Rhian Brewster and Hudson-Odoi who are very good prospects.

Not a list of 50 players that i’m assuming includes a world cup winner and a fullback who played in a champions league final.

I could be wrong though.

You are right, you are guessing.
Great addition to the discussion as usual (editing out the link from the post!).
I know what Jones is referring to and can see why.
I simply made it clear.

Bold Tone

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
We don't need a rating system to say that teams qualified to Champions League in the Bundesliga are better than many other teams in Europe. There are some statements that can be said without having to back it up with stats.

True but you also need some kind of evidence to back up an argument and, to be honest, i think the ratings part of this discussion is a a side track.

QuincyAbeyie

Bosscielny

Bold Tone wrote:
Jed wrote:
In Guendouzi and Nelson we've got 2 of the best teenage prospects around.

Biased much?
I'm more inclined to agree with this article below and i'm assuming that's what you meant as you couldn't say that with a straight face to Mbappe or Alexander-Arnold.
https://www.goal.com/en-gb/lists/nxgn-2018-the-50-best-teenagers-in-the-world/1uzkmt4w432v813xuj6bgxv164#cb0camm3b1cv12pb3167urcs1

e: Even narrowing it down to those that haven't cracked the first team, there's Phil Foden, Yacine Adli, Rhian Brewster and Hudson-Odoi who are very good prospects.

Bold Tone wrote:
Bosscielny wrote:
I’m guessing that when he says:

He’s referring to the players in your edit.

Not a list of 50 players that i’m assuming includes a world cup winner and a fullback who played in a champions league final.

I could be wrong though.

You are right, you are guessing.
Great addition to the discussion as usual (editing out the link from the post!).
I know what Jones is referring to and can see why.
I simply made it clear.

Why would I take up space leaving a link to something i don’t think he was referring to?

I’m happy to proven wrong. I couldn’t care less if i am. I’m fine with running the risk. Cause if i’m right then i’m the fourth person on this page alone that has made you look a bit silly, alongside Jones, Quincy and yourself.

Keep fighting the good fight, champ.

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