Squad Analysis 2013/14: Page 94 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Squad Analysis 2013/14

DiabyKungFu

Burnwinter™ wrote:
Well, for one thing you think he's worth £35m to the world at large, but you clearly think he's worth much less to Arsenal.

The WLD stats you give for Wilshere present / absent are meaningless. For example, Giroud, who's been one of the architects of our season's recovery, came back into the side at nearly exactly the same time Jack picked up his injury.

I don't think he's worth that. I think we could sell him for that, though. City are desperate to make a big English signing. Even before Wilshere got hurt, the team's with/without splits for Wilshere were horrific. It was a point that people brought up at the time that people handwaved away. There's also the matter of our big surge at the end of the 12-13 season. After a horribly uneven season, we ended 8-2-0. From memory, Wilshere started one of those 10 games. It was one of our two draws. This is also something that's been handwaved away. There's certainly a non-zero chance that this is all one big coincidence and Wilshere is actually a good player. However, this non-zero chance is not worth the opportunity cost of selling a player that has an ever-growing body of downright horibble with/without splits (and, being kind, mediocre individual stats) for money that can get a clearly elite player or prospect. That's how I see it.

Patters

Clrnc wrote:
The selling Wilshere talk is bullshit as well. I am of the opinion that he had a better season than Ramsey in the first half when he was fit, and people often forget how good he is whenever he is injured.

Fully agree that he looked to be finding good form early on this season. When he plays, he usually plays well. On occasion, fantastic. On occasion, badly. He has never recovered to the level of his first season though because he just hasn't been able to move freely enough. Whenever he gets an uninterrupted run without injury, the sharper he gets. Unfortunately he has always ended up breaking down - which ultimately can be the only logical argument to selling him. If there's a decent chance he can overcome his injury problems, it's an absolute no brainer to keep him because he'll be a phenomenal player. If there isn't a decent chance, you can think about moving him on to a club that might be unaware of the specifics or might be willing to take a gamble. There's a small chance any one could predict that, but the only people who can are those managing his injury situation. Not us.

He's viewed completely as an Arsenal product, he seems very close to coaching staff and is considered an amazing talent. If Arsenal ever got to a point where they were considering offers, it'd have to mean the club don't like his prospects of being injury free. I think that alone would be a bad signal for top clubs.

This 'record with Wilshere' V 'record without Wilshere' thing is nonsense. Means absolutely nothing.

Klaus

When Jack is fit he'll start as long as Wenger is in charge of this club. There's no way we will ever sell him.

DiabyKungFu

Klaus wrote:
When Jack is fit he'll start as long as Wenger is in charge of this club. There's no way we will ever sell him.

At the end of the 12-13 season when CL qualification was on the line, Wilshere didn't start. Tomas Rosicky did. Wilshere was fit and Wenger was in charge of the club.

QuincyAbeyie

He wasn't talking about the past, but the present and the future.

DiabyKungFu

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
He wasn't talking about the past, but the present and the future.

I don't see what has changed in this regard since 12-13 other than the fact that we have better players to bench him for now.

Clrnc

Diaby KungFu wrote:
Klaus wrote:
When Jack is fit he'll start as long as Wenger is in charge of this club. There's no way we will ever sell him.

At the end of the 12-13 season when CL qualification was on the line, Wilshere didn't start. Tomas Rosicky did. Wilshere was fit and Wenger was in charge of the club.

He wouldn't have started Diaby too for the same reason. He hasn't started Walcott too much for the same reason. They were coming back from injury on and off.

Wenger has a knack of not wanting to spoil the team balance too much. He keeps players in form and rarely dropped them. Rosicky was in the form of his life at that time. It has nothing to do with Wilshere.

DiabyKungFu

Clrnc wrote:
Diaby KungFu wrote:
At the end of the 12-13 season when CL qualification was on the line, Wilshere didn't start. Tomas Rosicky did. Wilshere was fit and Wenger was in charge of the club.

He wouldn't have started Diaby too for the same reason. He hasn't started Walcott too much for the same reason. They were coming back from injury on and off.

Wenger has a knack of not wanting to spoil the team balance too much. He keeps players in form and rarely dropped them. Rosicky was in the form of his life at that time. It has nothing to do with Wilshere.

Wilshere was starting every game at that point and Rosicky was hardly playing. Wilshere straight-up got benched. Rosicky did fuck all in those last 10 games besides the 2 goals and goal-line clearance at West Brom and the assist against Man U anyway.

Claudius

Klaus wrote:
When Jack is fit he'll start as long as Wenger is in charge of this club. There's no way we will ever sell him.

Whose place will he take and how do you keep the squad balanced in this instance?

Klaus

Claudius wrote:
Klaus wrote:
When Jack is fit he'll start as long as Wenger is in charge of this club. There's no way we will ever sell him.

Who's place will he take and how do you keep the squad balanced in this instance?

Cazorla's.

Rohit

In 2012-13, Wilshere came back after a horrific 15 month injury lay off without a pre season and was straight away our best player by a distance after he was drafted into the team right away.

[size=large]He got injured again and we had some momentum by the time he got fit again which is why he didn't start much, there was no time for him to get match fit. [/size]

[size=large]It is a poor example without any context. [/size]

lorddulaarsenal

Have a feeling Wilshere is about to take it to the next level

est

Wilshere is one of the biggest talents in England. If not the biggest.

Wenger didn't bring him through to the first team at 16 just to let him go after a few injury-ravaged seasons at 23 years of age.

We are finally in a position, squad-wise, where we don't have to rely on him performing week-in week-out and can just let him find his way back to full fitness and form. Selling him shouldn't and luckily doesn't even come into consideration.

lorddulaarsenal

Selling him to someone like city is an almighty risk

Ray

The quality of the squad has improved when guys like Wilshere, Walcott and Szczesny are not automatic starters anymore.

Rex

yuv wrote:
Claudius wrote:
Cazorla should be free to go if Wilshere ever comes right. Cazorla's ability to play in 4 different positions for us is quite valuable. Silshre might be able to play the same 4 positions if he ever fulfills his potential. So I would not look to dump Cazorla just yet.
It's elsewhere we need to trim first: Podolski, Campbell, Sanogo, Jenkinson, Walcott, Flamini can all go. We might raise some 30m pounds from these sales which might be the difference between getting the Reuses and Bales of this world

I agree with you. But Jack is very much a bird on the tree, Santi's anything but. All I was saying in this thread is basically this: Santi's been there for us all the time, wherever we needed. He delivered. I can't think of something more important than that, for all the imaginary "ceiling games". And not that his ceiling is mediocre either: Sanit's a top player.

Now as for "we need Schneiderlin more" and such, just this: suppose it's all coming together really well, Oz plays sublime football without drops in form, and he's always playing in the center, same for Ramsey and Coq. Who's Oil's back up? is DM really more important than AM? Not saying it's not central (as we learned with Coq's emergence), but I still think a second top no 10 is a crucial thing. And no, not Sanchez, please.

Why not Alexis? He is by far the better player behind the striker. Reus and Schneiderlin in, then you have yet another player in Reus who is better than Cazorla in the role Özil occupies.
If we could afford to keep Santi, and he would be willing to accept a utility role like Rosicky's, while still being able to get Schneiderlin and Reus - then let's keep him, by all means. We absolutely need to get rid of Flamini, Podolski, Campbell, Sanogo and Diaby, and they will free up significant wages, but they won't bring much of a fee between them. Selling a 31 year old Cazorla too for £15m would be a great deal, and one I hope we make.

Burnwinter

Not Alexis at #10 because his understanding with the rest of the team has proven to be a bit unwieldy, and he likes to carry the ball.

Out wide his energy is still a threat, space can be made for him by drifting central players, and his running serves a purpose.

yuv

Agree with BW.

Surprising to see how when you go a bit deeper you find such deep controversy on players like Cazorla.
It's more surprising than the Gibbs-Nacho thing.

Perhaps if Jack does take it to the "next level", he will take Caz out - perhaps an older Caz, in a year or two.
ATM I don't think comparing them is serious.

Clrnc

yuv wrote:
Perhaps if Jack does take it to the "next level", he will take Caz out - perhaps an older Caz, in a year or two.
ATM I don't think comparing them is serious.

Exactly. Too many people is "hoping" that Wilshere comes back into the team and "assuming" he is at his best level. Ever since Santi came to Arsenal, he's head and shoulders better than anything Wilshere has ever shown us. Don't get me wrong, Jack has had good games, but he was never consistently good nor fit since his first season. We need to stop talking about hypothesis, about Fantasy when it comes to squad management. Keep our best players, and if you can find a better one well done, bench Santi which will upgrade our quality on the bench. Keep doing that and your squad will be unbelievably good. Keep selling and replacing and you will remain the same level fighting for 4th. Easy as that. Santi belongs to the first XI centrally till Jack and Ramsey can show that they are consistently top class from now onwards.

Diaby KungFu wrote:
Wilshere was starting every game at that point and Rosicky was hardly playing. Wilshere straight-up got benched. Rosicky did fuck all in those last 10 games besides the 2 goals and goal-line clearance at West Brom and the assist against Man U anyway.

Oh really? Using stats and down play Rosicky's importance in that 2nd half of the season while trying to show Wilshere in a lesser light?

There's much more factors than that mate. That example clearly doesn't show both players quality and importance to us.

Anzac

IMO our midfield remains a concern going forward.

Arteta, Cazorla, Flamini are 30+;
Rambo, Wilshere & Ox are the current Gen but can't stay fit for half a season;
Coquelin has had a break out 4 months.

Zelalem, Crowley & Bielik are the next gen waiting in the wings but to bring them in now whilst the current Gen are still so disjoint would destabilise the team even more.

IMO to consider any of Rambo, Wilshere & Ox as starting players would be a massive error.

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