Squad Analysis 2013/14: Page 84 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Squad Analysis 2013/14

Claudius

Quincy, that is very likely the joint squad I would take. Any two of the three centrebacks you have there is fine. Fact is a joint squad would be overwhelmingly Chelsea with some significant gaps in quality between their guy and our guy. Real Madrid Ozil would feel aggrieved to be left out but Arsenal Ozil cannot start ahead of Sanchez, Fabregas, Hazard.

goon

lagos wrote:
otfgoon wrote:
Koscielny getting in to Chelsea's lineup would be a debate? 😆

I'd take Theo/Ozil over Cuadrado/Willian any day of the week too.

Regardless of who you rate more, saying Fabregas walks into the team over Ramsey or Hazard walks in over Sanchez 'without the faintest hint of a fight' is hyperbolic to the extreme, or just plain wrong in the latter case.

Hazard/Sanchez is a tough one, it would depend on your setup but both are as good as it gets so lets call that one a draw.

Fabregas/Ramsey, are you kidding me? Ramsey has to play out of his skin to match fabregas at idle speed.... no contest!

don't know about Quadrado but Willian is just an Ok player. Chelsea will never buy Walcott so need to even bother with comparisons, they've sold off better players than him.

You're just seduced by Fabregas' passing ability and vision. Ramsey does a hell of a lot more defensively, scores more goals and covers more ground. Ironically, I reckon Mourinho would prefer a player in the mould of Ramsey given the chance. But again, regardless of who you rate more, it's ludicrous to suggest that someone who scored 16 goals and got nearly as many assists last season (despite being injured for 3 months) and one of the front runners for player of the season until his injury, isn't apparently fit to lace Fabregas' boots.

goon

lagos wrote:
you could even argue that the CB pairing would be 2 of Kos/cahill/terry, not so sure if Kos is a dead cert for an automatic spot though I wont argue against either.

Cahill has been droped for a 20yr old kid because he's been so appalling. Again, I have to question whether or not some of you guys even watch these guys play, or just go by reputation.

Claudius

lagos wrote:
"Hazard walks in over Sanchez" is what I responded to

Ramsey is the odd man out in that lineup

It feels much like the CB debate here. Ramsey, Oscar, Cazorla - one of the three wouldn't give a massive lift over the others. None have been consistently bossy this season but at their best they're each fire.
In any case, Lagos, this goes back to my typical point about hidden value in the squad - we need to be brutal this off-season. Welbeck/Walcott/Wilshere/Podolski/Flamini/Arteta/etc need to be traded in for 2 more world class players, e.g., a DM and a striker.

goon

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Isn't it obvious that Sanchez and Hazard would both play?

Courtois
Ivanovic - Koscielny - Cahill/Terry - Azpilicueta
Matic - Ramsey
Sanchez - Fabregas - Hazard
Costa

or something.

Combined teams don't show the distribution of talent though, you need to compare like for like.

Put it this way, Chelsea could have Hazard and Quincy Abeyie on the wings while we've got Sanchez and Ozil. So having Sanchez and Hazard in a combined team doesn't exactly reflect who's better on the wings.

Bold Tone

Diaby KungFu wrote:
y va marquer wrote:
We've seen nothing of the Per Paulista partnership so it remains to be seen if the addition of Paulista is immediately "gigantic".
Theo is not "gigantic" enough an addition to compensate for the subtraction of Alexis who was instrumental in keeping us afloat when we were pretty much forced to start with the team you listed.

I'm pretty confident that Gabriel is a much better CB than Monreal. I also think Alexis' early season form was massively overrated. He only started passing the ball to players in a timely manner in the past month or so. I felt that him being so "instrumental" to us was as much a function of his ballhogging as it was of his quality. I don't think going from early season Alexis to Theo is that big of a dropoff.

So you are counting injured players as well as those not yet signed?
Even then Monreal wasn't the reason we were so pathetic that our own fans started producing "Wenger out" banners and Theo comes with a sicknote attached every season bar one in his last 10 years.
As for Alexis ballhogging, i can only say thank heavens as the rest of the attackers were godawful then. The fact is we do not deserve to be higher than our current league position and several squads between now and 2001 would, arguably, be higher.

QuincyAbeyie

otfgoon wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Isn't it obvious that Sanchez and Hazard would both play?

Courtois
Ivanovic - Koscielny - Cahill/Terry - Azpilicueta
Matic - Ramsey
Sanchez - Fabregas - Hazard
Costa

or something.

Combined teams don't show the distribution of talent though, you need to compare like for like.

Put it this way, Chelsea could have Hazard and Quincy Abeyie on the wings while we've got Sanchez and Ozil. So having Sanchez and Hazard in a combined team doesn't exactly reflect who's better on the wings.

That is a good point. Another way could be to post a second team.

Cech
Bellerin - Mertesacker - Cahill/Terry - Filipe Luis
Ramires - Cazorla
Cuadrado/Walcott - Oscar - Özil
Giroud

Where it's a "tie" on the first team - in this case the wings - you can check out the second team instead. I think we're clearly better set on the wings than Chelsea.

goon

lagos wrote:
Re: Fabregas v Ramsey

Ramsey has had one good season, one! Opinions are divided here, threads abound one day it's Ramsey the dud, the next it's superhero. In the whatever number of years Fabregas played for us I can't remmember anyone ever doubting his quality, just as no one is debating or debated the quality of Sanchez or Henry or Vieira that alone tells you they aren't in the same class.

Regards Cahill, Yeah I saw the match, Kos has also had a few poor games this season, it doesn't mean either is suddenly a bad player, it just means when you lose form in chelsea you get dropped unlike here.

You think Ramsey's performances last season (and for half a season before that) was just one big purple patch?

Dula starting a dud thread every time he goes through a spell below par are not exactly evidence of anything.

Maybe I'm overrating him but I think Ramsey is as good as it gets.

ludovicvanzis

I'd take their goalie and striker for sure.

How has Filipe Luis been doing? Liked the look of him.

Hazard would be handy too.

Combined 11s are pretty stupid, not gonna go into that.

goon

lagos wrote:
Fabregas is as good as it gets without being a Messi/Ronaldo/Henry, he has no flaws and he is consistent in his genuis. Ramsey is a 7/10 player, when he is on song he is unplayable as we saw last year but he is also very capable of being quite shite,

You start a match with fabregas you worry about the other players, you start a match with Ramsey and you wonder which Ramsey is going to show up. that's why I say Chelsea will never sign players like him or Theo, certainly not to their 1st 11.

Theo and Ramsey are not players from other leagues that you can say maybe this maybe that, everyone has seen their performances in the PL for years and while they've both had good moments, they have shown the world they are very inconsistent. Winners have no patience for inconsistency, As you said, Cahill was dropped, this is a team that has twice ruthlessly dropped the 2 best keepers in the Premier league and you think they are going to sign good today poor tomorrow Ramsey?

That's not true though. Fabregas suffers from inconsistency as much as anyone, ask the Barcelona fans. Even in his last couple of seasons here, I specifically remember debating his poor form with some on A-M, who claimed his head was at Barca while I blamed it on his constant hammy injuries, other blamed the players he had around him. Even for Chelsea this season he's had some mediocre games.

And I don't worry about Ramsey at all, for me he's the first name on the team sheet in an area of the pitch we're strongest at.

As for having no flaws, yet again that's massive hyperbole.

goon

Ramsey performed consistently week in week out for 18 months, this idea that you could be brilliant one min and shite the next is just not true. He suffered for a couple of months with a new role and perhaps the added weight of expectation but he's been playing at a good level for a good couple of months now.

goon

Well then surely the same argument applies to Fabregas. We won fuck all with him after his breakthrough season, at least Aaron scored the winning goal in the FA Cup.

ludovicvanzis

otfgoon wrote:
at least Aaron scored the winning goal in the FA Cup.

:drool:

That's my face whenever someone mentions last year's FA cup

Klaus

Ramsey is one player who has deserved his reputation. If anything he's probably underrated again. Nailed down world class midfielder when he's not injured. We just need to stop screwing around and make him the heart of the team. He's got more football in him than anyone in this squad.

Clrnc

otfgoon wrote:
Combined teams don't show the distribution of talent though, you need to compare like for like.

Our first team this season vs theirs like-for-like same formation

Ospina
Debuchy Kos Mert Monreal
Coquelin Ramsey
Ox Cazorla Alexis
Giroud

Courtois
Ivanovic Terry Cahill Azplicuerta
Matic Fabregas
Willian Oscar Hazard
Diego Costa

We'd at least have 2 representatives in there surely.

DiabyKungFu

Clrnc wrote:
otfgoon wrote:
Combined teams don't show the distribution of talent though, you need to compare like for like.

Our first team this season vs theirs like-for-like same formation

Ospina
Debuchy Kos Mert Monreal
Coquelin Ramsey
Ox Cazorla Alexis
Giroud

Courtois
Ivanovic Terry Cahill Azplicuerta
Matic Fabregas
Willian Oscar Hazard
Diego Costa

We'd at least have 2 representatives in there surely.

How in the world do Debuchy and Chamberlain get in over Bellerin and Ozil (or even Walcott for that matter)? Also, it's early days, but Zouma looks much better than Cahill.

Shady

Gary Cahill is a fraud. Been saying it for ages, guy is toss.

Koscielny is so much better, but then the standard for defenders has deteriorated over the last few years.

goon

lagos wrote:
If you want to argue for argument sake you can carry on OFt, I am trying to make a serious point here which is that 1) consistency is more important than ability, 2) we are going to continue to mire in the mediocrity of CL qualification unless we are ruthless enough to upgrade some of our players even some who are fan favourites.

You points are only valid on the assumption that I accept your evaluation of Ramsey. I don't, so lets just leave it there.

ChiliPalmer

Shady Shakes wrote:
Gary Cahill is a fraud.

So true. 😆

Clrnc

Diaby KungFu wrote:
How in the world do Debuchy and Chamberlain get in over Bellerin and Ozil (or even Walcott for that matter)? Also, it's early days, but Zouma looks much better than Cahill.

Ozil hasn't started a single game on the right for us.

It doesn't make a difference actually in the sense that those players ain't going into the Chelsea side anyway. I'd probably only have Koscielny, Alexis and Cazorla in that Chelsea side if we were to argue with like-for-like. Ox and Willian is a close enough argument for me too, both players not having productive stats but have crucial workrate.

I don't think we are that far off. Personally I also prefer Bellerin over Ivanovic but that's early days.

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