Squad Analysis 2013/14: Page 83 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Squad Analysis 2013/14

JazzG

03/04 we had a great first XI (far superior to our current) but didn't have much squad depth. We got quite lucky with injuries but by the end the players were burned out, hence why we lost games against Chelsea in the CL and Man Utd in the FA cup when we should have won both and probably gone on to win both competitions.

01/02 we had an incredible number of injuries and red cards but had a larger squad which all chipped in and got us the double. We lost some key players at the end of the season which weren't replaced adequately, hence why we didn't win the league in 02/03 despite us clearly being better than Man Utd. Even in 04/05 our lack of squad depth cost us, too many of our players were coming to the end of their peak at the same time.

QuincyAbeyie

JazzG wrote:
03/04 we had a great first XI (far superior to our current) but didn't have much squad depth. We got quite lucky with injuries but by the end the players were burned out, hence why we lost games against Chelsea in the CL and Man Utd in the FA cup when we should have won both and probably gone on to win both competitions.

0,00000004315 seconds - The time in which I'd switch out our current squad for the one we had in 03/04 if I received the offer.

y va marquer

For me the fact that the 03/04 squad had a significantly better first eleven to our current squad automatically makes it a stronger squad.
Unless the argument is that having a first eleven of lesser quality than the 03/04 squad backed-up by players of roughly equal quality (in a few positions) makes the overall squad stronger...
Think our form from August to Christmas disproves that theory.

Ray

I think this is the best squad we have had since 05. Sanchez signing was huge.

JazzG

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
JazzG wrote:
03/04 we had a great first XI (far superior to our current) but didn't have much squad depth. We got quite lucky with injuries but by the end the players were burned out, hence why we lost games against Chelsea in the CL and Man Utd in the FA cup when we should have won both and probably gone on to win both competitions.

0,00000004315 seconds - The time in which I'd switch out our current squad for the one we had in 03/04 if I received the offer.

I'm surprised it would take you so long tbh!

Alfonso

Jazz G as per usual has got it spot on.

In 03/04 we had a great first 11-15 that was very fortunate with injuries. But even they got burnt out by April hence our exists in the latter stages of both the FA Cup and CL. If we had a better squad we would have def won at least one more trophy that year.

People forget that we had an ageing Martin Keown and Pascal Cygan as our centre back covers. If Toure did not have his breakthrough season that year we would have been screwed. Plus who was Lauren's replacement? Exactly.

In 2004/2005 as soon as Gilberto got injured we fell apart as we did not really have someone to come in and do his job.

Now we pretty much got cover for every position in the squad.

In 2007/2008 it was similar to 2003/2004 In that we had a great first 11 but not so much as reliable back ups hence we fucked that season up.

Last season we were practically playing with one striker for the whole season.

This is why I think right now we have the best squad since 2001/2002.

y va marquer

So how has this cover for every position worked in our favour this season?
Answer: it hasn't, when we were without all of Kos, Ramsey, Giroud, Theo, Debuchy, Arteta and Özil we were struggling to beat even mediocre teams.
That's why we're off the pace and battling for third with United.
Now that we have most of those players back we're looking good, take a few of them out at the same time again and the same problems will come back to haunt us.

DiabyKungFu

y va marquer wrote:
So how has this cover for every position worked in our favour this season?
Answer: it hasn't, when we were without all of Kos, Ramsey, Giroud, Theo, Debuchy, Arteta and Özil we were struggling to beat even mediocre teams.
That's why we're off the pace and battling for third with United.
Now that we have most of those players back we're looking good, take a few of them out at the same time again and the same problems will come back to haunt us.

Szczesny
Chambers-Mertesacker-Gabriel-Gibbs
Flamini
Walcott-Wilshere-Rosicky-Chamberlain
Welbeck

Start with that team 38 times in a season and it could plausibly finish 3rd. The only 2 positions where it looks especially weak (DM, RB) are the 2 positions where we currently have long-term injuries to superior players.

Klaus

Alfonso wrote:
Jazz G as per usual has got it spot on.

In 03/04 we had a great first 11-15 that was very fortunate with injuries. But even they got burnt out by April hence our exists in the latter stages of both the FA Cup and CL. If we had a better squad we would have def won at least one more trophy that year.

But they went through the league unbeaten. By definition it makes the squad better than anything we have now. I don't see how anyone can argue this point. More people with less quality does not equal a better squad. It just equals more people with less quality. You've got your logic twisted, mate.

y va marquer

@ Kung Fu
No, no it wouldn't.
We weren't far off starting that very team (bar Paulista and Theo) on quite a few occasions from August to December and it was poor, quite poor.
You obviously don't take our performances and league position prior to our recent roll of decent results too seriously.

DiabyKungFu

y va marquer wrote:
@ Kung Fu
No, no it wouldn't.
We weren't far off starting that very team (bar Paulista and Theo) on quite a few occasions from August to December and it was poor, quite poor.
You obviously don't take our performances and league position prior to our recent roll of decent results too seriously.

The additions of Gabriel and Theo are gigantic, though. I also think our performances were much better than our results during that period as well. Even if nothing had changed at all with regards to injuries, I would have expected a significant uptick in results.

y va marquer

We've seen nothing of the Per Paulista partnership so it remains to be seen if the addition of Paulista is immediately "gigantic".
Theo is not "gigantic" enough an addition to compensate for the subtraction of Alexis who was instrumental in keeping us afloat when we were pretty much forced to start with the team you listed.

DiabyKungFu

y va marquer wrote:
We've seen nothing of the Per Paulista partnership so it remains to be seen if the addition of Paulista is immediately "gigantic".
Theo is not "gigantic" enough an addition to compensate for the subtraction of Alexis who was instrumental in keeping us afloat when we were pretty much forced to start with the team you listed.

I'm pretty confident that Gabriel is a much better CB than Monreal. I also think Alexis' early season form was massively overrated. He only started passing the ball to players in a timely manner in the past month or so. I felt that him being so "instrumental" to us was as much a function of his ballhogging as it was of his quality. I don't think going from early season Alexis to Theo is that big of a dropoff.

Anzac

A couple of thoughts re the last couple of pages here:

EVERY squad is left 'short' by AW one way or another, by simple virtue that he prefers to operate based upon an 18 man match day squad. Once he reaches those numbers he prefers to look to 'internal solutions' and developing players to fill the numbers/positions/roles.
03/04 were 'better' by simple virtue that they won the league.
Every squad since 08/09 has been hamstrung by the development player project as part of the match day squad, both in terms of quality/capability, and more so it's impact regarding injuries. This is a consequence because developing players are not able to handle the physical demands of regular games, and the developed players are required to carry more of the burden. This then leads to burn out and injuries, and then players being rushed back in to play because of the lack of cover/capability/performance.
Whilst the current squad may seemingly have more quality in depth, IMO it is still very much undermined by AW's numbers game and the cumulative impact of injuries, simply because we have so many players with long term/persistent injury issues, AND that prior to the new year that AW had not started 7 players of his 25 man squad, 3 of whom were not injured or on loan.
AW doesn't rotate as his methodology relies upon players playing together so as to develop their understanding, so as to enable their 'player intelligence' and intuitive play together.

Qwiss

The only player in our back 5 who'd have gotten his game for the 03/04 squad is Kos and he'd have had a serious fight on his hands. We currently don't have a midfielder close to Vieira good and we don't have a striker fit to clean 03/04 Henrys boots. The gap between the first team now and the Invincibles is massive.

That said there isn't a top quality side like that in the league now so we don't have to have 6 world class players to compete.

Anzac

qs! wrote:
The only player in our back 5 who'd have gotten his game for the 03/04 squad is Kos and he'd have had a serious fight on his hands. We currently don't have a midfielder close to Vieira good and we don't have a striker fit to clean 03/04 Henrys boots. The gap between the first team now and the Invincibles is massive.

That said there isn't a top quality side like that in the league now so we don't have to have 6 world class players to compete.

That squad was also prior to the Development Project = they were men & TH was the youngest aged 21-22 when he joined, whereas Fabregas was part of the team aged 17, as were Walcott, Wilshere, Ox & Rambo FFS.

Claudius

QS, I beg to differ about top quality squads in the Premier League. Chelsea has so many players who would simply walk onto squad. All of Costa, Fabregas, Hazard, Matic, Azpilicueta, Ivanovic, and Courtois would simply walk into our team without the faintest hint of fight. Only Alexis from our side would demand a starting place. The debate would be around our centrebacks and another midfielder (Cazorla, Ramsey, Ozil) potentially staking a claim in a first 11. The key here for Chelsea (as was the case for the Invincibles) is that they have kept a very healthy top 13 to 14 players throughout the season.

It's hard to legislate for injuries, but Wenger 2003 and Mourinho 2014 put themselves in a great position by building great first teams.

goon

Koscielny getting in to Chelsea's lineup would be a debate? 😆

I'd take Theo/Ozil over Cuadrado/Willian any day of the week too.

Regardless of who you rate more, saying Fabregas walks into the team over Ramsey or Hazard walks in over Sanchez 'without the faintest hint of a fight' is hyperbolic to the extreme, or just plain wrong in the latter case.

Ray

Chelsea are just well drilled not world class. Real, Barca and Bayern have world class squads that would walk into our team, not Chelsea.

QuincyAbeyie

Isn't it obvious that Sanchez and Hazard would both play?

Courtois
Ivanovic - Koscielny - Cahill/Terry - Azpilicueta
Matic - Ramsey
Sanchez - Fabregas - Hazard
Costa

or something.

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