You're right. The other clubs' fans don't give a shit about us now, it's true.

When we get thumped or have a bad beat my Liverpool supporting co-worker only sympathises instead of mocking me.

What's with the desperation to classify us as non A-list or mid table?
I wonder if Wenger were to leave would the downgrading cease?
For me, in terms of English football we are A-list and amongst the top tier despite our current form.
In terms of European football we can't claim to be amongst the top until we win the CL.

Burnwinter wrote:

Biggus might claim that 3rd (our most recent place) is, for all intents and purposes, equivalent to 10th, but you can imagine with what reserves of sangfroid he'd react if we actually did finish in 10th place.

I couldn't give a damn if we finished 3rd or 10th, so long as Wenger is manager we'll never win the CL.

Burnwinter wrote:

In our case: better players, better football, bragging rights over Spurs, romantic European Cup ties, and, though trophyless, closer to a trophy than the club would otherwise be.

Oh yeah? show me these better players, this better football, I saw the romantic European Cup tie last week but it's a relief to know we're closer to a trophy than we'd otherwise be....

I couldn't give a damn if we finished 3rd or 10th

Absolute bullshit Biggs.

y va marquer wrote:

For me, in terms of English football we are A-list and amongst the top tier despite our current form.

Err I don't know how to break this to you Y va........

Burnwinter wrote:

You're right. The other clubs' fans don't give a shit about us now, it's true.

When we get thumped or have a bad beat my Liverpool supporting co-worker only sympathises instead of mocking me.

We obviously aren't the only ones suffering. It'll be a 1st when supporters from other clubs start chanting "Wenger out"

Biggus wrote:

y va marquer wrote:

For me, in terms of English football we are A-list and amongst the top tier despite our current form.

Err I don't know how to break this to you Y va........

it feels like when Newcastle used to say they are a big club. Yes you can understand why (their fan base) but......

Toon last won the league in 1927, but, you know, whatever floats your boat.

[/wikipedia]

A big fan base nor a big fucking white elephant of a stadium doth not a big club make.

I know, Just saying it is laughable when they call themselves a big club and though not quite the same it kinda feels laughable to describe us as an "a list" club. We don't have the CV of an elite club just as Newcastle don't have the CV of a big club

No European Glory
No back to back titles
No Trebles
No trophy in 8 years
No real superstars in the squad

It sort of feels like the only reason why we are there or thereabouts is our financial power, just as Newcastle could technicaly say they are a big club because of their unique demographics. Like we we are there on a technicality.

You're right, Arsenal's not a big club.

We're only the fifth richest club in the world by revenue (and fourth most valuable by estimate)* and 13 times winners of the English top flight, and 10 times the FA Cup and the historically most successful club in the biggest city in the most storied nation and league of world football.

Why not just pushing this barrow and comparing us to West Ham or what have you? Of course everything you guys say about our recent results is true (and I know that as well as you do) - but put it in rational perspective.

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes%27_list_of_the_most_valuable_football_clubs#2012_rankings

Burnwinter wrote:

You're right. The other clubs' fans don't give a shit about us now, it's true.

When we get thumped or have a bad beat my Liverpool supporting co-worker only sympathises instead of mocking me.

Hmm...fans of other clubs that I know generally wax lyrical about everything Arsenal; they 'have' intimate knowledge of our finances, our players, what happens in the dressing room, what wenger eats for lunch, what colour Theo's boxers are...

Must be an international thing.

@Lagos Drafted that before I read your post. I agree with you anyway, just get bored by all the rhetorical cheap shots.

@Capi This guy knows a bit about Arsenal, but I mean to say he doesn't resent our successes because we don't really have any to resent (for the moment). So he just sympathises when we, like Liverpool, suck from season to season.

I didn't say we aren't a big club Burnsy, I said we aren't A-list. The comparison wasn't like for like but relative. Our achievements make us a big club but are we really elite?

You could say Newcastle are a big club because technically speaking they have a big fan base
you could also say we are an elite club because we are always there hobnobing with the rich and famous and financial might.

EDIT: just seen your post.

Two swings, two misses

Burnwinter wrote:

@Capi This guy knows a bit about Arsenal, but I mean to say he doesn't resent our successes because we don't really have any to resent (for the moment). So he just sympathises when we, like Liverpool, suck from season to season.

Yeah, clearly nobody resents our success but almost every fan is 'concerned' with our failure.

took a while to trickle down to the fans

True, they're all "poor you, losing all your players, never signing anyone good".

Can't trust it, it's like your mate patting you on the shoulder when you break up with a girl he always fancied.

We're a naturally big club due to our history, fan base, financial power, stadium and the fact that we've been among the best sides for over a dacade. It's why Liverpool are also a big club.

otfgoon wrote:

We're a naturally big club due to our history, fan base, financial power, stadium and the fact that we've been among the best sides for over a dacade. It's why Liverpool are also a big club.

The bigness of Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea etc are not in doubt

Similarly the eliteness of Manu, Real, Barcelona is not in doubt

Out of curiousity where do people rank Liverpool, obviously they are a big club but despite their past glories, do you still class them as an elite club?

In my eyes, Liverpool are still a massive club. The problem for them is that some 3/4 of the world's population would not have a memory of them winning league titles. Certainly, the Champions League helps, but their's is a problem of perception amongst supporters under 20 years of age.

I would say right now, there is only one elite club in England, in Manchester United. Then there is a group of 4 clubs who are either rising or falling (Chelsea, Arsenal, Citeh, Liverpool) and everyone else is irrelevant. United stand alone.

This is a current Liverpool legend

Burnwinter wrote:

You're right, Arsenal's not a big club.

We're only the fifth richest club in the world by revenue (and fourth most valuable by estimate)* and 13 times winners of the English top flight, and 10 times the FA Cup and the historically most successful club in the biggest city in the most storied nation and league of world football.

Why not just pushing this barrow and comparing us to West Ham or what have you? Of course everything you guys say about our recent results is true (and I know that as well as you do) - but put it in rational perspective.

Err I never said we weren't a big club we are, just like all those other big clubs like Liverpool Leeds and Newcastle that are currently languishing mid table or lower so their supporters certainly have nothing to crow about to us.
We're a sleeping giant mired with the rest of the crap thanks to the ineptitude of those fucking turkeys.

It's about ranking. Rankings could be pretty fluid, but I see something like

• Real, Barca, United, Milan, Bayern
• Arsenal, Liverpool, Inter, Chelsea, Citeh, Juventus
• The others: Dortmund, Porto, etc.

I can't take anyone else's claim seriously.

lagos wrote:

otfgoon wrote:

We're a naturally big club due to our history, fan base, financial power, stadium and the fact that we've been among the best sides for over a dacade. It's why Liverpool are also a big club.

The bigness of Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea etc are not in doubt

Similarly the eliteness of Manu, Real, Barcelona is not in doubt

Out of curiousity where do people rank Liverpool, obviously they are a big club but despite their past glories, do you still class them as an elite club?

If there was a breakaway european league tomorrow, Liverpool would be in it. So yes, they are an elite club.

I'm not so sure about that Capi. How many teams do you have to take from each country to accommodate Liverpool and you really can't have more than 20-22 clubs in a league?

off the top off my head
Manu
City
Chelsea
Arsenal
Barca
Madrid
Inter
AC
Ajax
Fernerbache
sparta Prague
Porto
Bayern
Hamburg
Schalke
PSG
Lyon
Olypiakos
Zenit Saint Petersburg

.....and this is probably only 10 countries

how do you form a league from 53 countries and give one country 5 slots?

lagos wrote:

I'm not so sure about that Capi. How many teams do you have to take from each country to accommodate Liverpool and you really can't have more than 20-22 clubs in a league?

I don't know, but I know that Liverpool would be in it at the expense of Chelsea or City (most likely city).

notsaying I agree or disagree with their ranking but I bumped into this

Any breakaway league would have Liverpool in there because they would want the most popular clubs. Would need to attract top TV contracts and sponsors, and youre not doing that with Olympiakos and Fenerbache.

good point, but you cannot exclude a country like Greece, at least one of their teams will get in, in any event hat happens if they get relegated? in a league of this quality top teams will get relagated. In any event I don't think the revenue from a European super league will be determined by the number of fans, or put another way, being in the breakaway league will produce more fans. Obviously a lot of coefficients will be factored into the initial ranking and they may take City's spot assuming there are 4 slots for England (itself very unlikely) I don't think Liverpool's inclusion is that clearcut.

In any event, I think you lose more in TV contracts etc by excluding a whole country than you lose by excluding a club but in their favour they have History and are a top 8 European money club.

A breakaway (from UEFA) league implies that it'll be the clubs organising everything, in which case they'll look after themselves- maximise revenue by inviting only the most popular and powerful clubs, no relegation etc.

would destroy football

I think we have seen enough over the last decade to confidently say that only 4-5 leagues would even come up in discussion; that is England, Spain, Italy and Germany with possibly France as an afterthought. Remember, this is a breakaway league, it doesn't have to be all inclusive and would be serving the interests of those involved at top level discussion. Co-efficients wouldn't even come into it in my opinion, as it would largely be based on prestige and the size of the names involved.

Runninng with that, I think the 'must-haves' (that is, teams with the commercial draw to make the league a success) breakdown is two from Spain, four from england (maybe even three), two from Germany and three from Italy; that totals eleven teams. You then have nine spots to fill (in a 20 team league, could be more) where you can invite, for instance, your Ajax and your Marseilles etc. And that's without even considering a second division.

Or what Tim said. That's what you get for not refreshing the page.

#Timmeh wrote:

A breakaway (from UEFA) league implies that it'll be the clubs organising everything, in which case they'll look after themselves- maximise revenue by inviting only the most popular and powerful clubs, no relegation etc.

Will never happen, in the near future, as the status quo suits the powers that be.

Super league won't happen anyway.

If it does we will probably be fighting for mid-table mediocrity every bloody season.

Or if we are unlucky, relegation.

It would bore me to tears anyway.