One thing to do it in the Swedish 4th tier, another thing completely to do it at a higher level in front of large crowds and media coverage.

We beat Germany! Sure it was a second string German side and Harry Kewell was channelling Gerrard, Rooney and Pires for the pelanty, and it was on'y a friendly and not the World Cup where we got stuffed 4-0, but still. Go you Aussies.

Xcdude24 wrote:

Just wanted to comment on the whole ruckus that's come out of this week's Old Firm match.

The reaction from the media, Strathclyde police, and the Scottish Government is an overreaction of the highest order. Were there any calls for West Ham-Arsenal matches to be banned when Pardew and Wenger got at it? Do people call for Eboue to be banned when he throws his shirt into the away section? I'm sure a lot of people think, "Old Firm matches should be held to a higher standard because of its history, the sectarian nature of the derby, etc." At the end of the day, what happens on the pitch means very little. When all those arrests were made at Celtic Park earlier this season, I don't recall anything overly controversial happening on the pitch. Conversely, the media would like us to believe all hell broke loose earlier this week, and there were a fraction of arrests in comparison to what went down several weeks ago.

Only just seen this. You're wrong on a number of points, which I think is due to you failing to understand the context of the game itself and those involved in the flashpoints. Wenger and Pardew's spat was certainly out of character, but in comparison to what happened in that game at Celtic Park it was nothing. Ditto for Eboue, most people wouldn't care, but because it was Diouf with his history with Celtic fans in the past doing it at Celtic Park after a ill-tempered game it took on more meaning.

There was certainly overreaction from the media, although that's a given in almost any situation. As for the police and government I don't think it was at all really. Perhaps from a political perspective there was some bandwagon jumping, as they withdrew funding from a number of sectarian initiatives and the like over the last year or so, only to dish out money left, right and centre to many of the same causes after the inquiry into the going-ons of that old firm game with all the trouble. I think the government was probably more worried by the media outcry and public perception after that game though.

Even quiet old firm games that pass without incident on the pitch see the West of Scotland blighted by an increase in serious violent assaults, anti-social behaviour and domestic abuse throughout the day afterwards. After that game, tensions were raised even more than usual and the trouble off the pitch in the hours after it reflected as much. There weren't enough cells in Glasgow to hold the numbers of people arrested, with many having to be transported to outlying police stations due to the strain the custody system was put under.

Arrests at the match do not serve as a good indication of the scale of the problem, and contrary to what you've stated there was actually three times as many arrests in the stadium for that game marred by the trouble as there was at the game a few weeks prior to it. At the League Cup final a week or so ago there were only 7 arrests at the stadium, but again cells could have been filled just because of public order offences, sectarian abuse/chanting and other such lower level disorder. Certain offences on matchdays can be overlooked for a number of reasons, primarily due to the lack of resources which would be needed to deal with an overwhelming number of incidents but also because the resources deployed aren't always in a situation to deal with arresting people in and around the stadium where they are needed to keep the order and maintain the safety rather. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, you must have seen a number of incidents on away days to the likes of Stoke which may have be dealt with more robustly had the police been in a stronger position.

Thankfully the last game (the cup final) passed without any major incident both on and off the park, and the furore has died away. I don't know what the answer is long term, it isn't realistic to ban fans, whether it be all fans or just away ones. The fans are often what makes these games and the players would want them there. But the conduct of the players and coaching staff certainly has an impact on fan behaviour during and after the games and they need to be the ones leading by example.

Asterix wrote:

We beat Germany! Sure it was a second string German side and Harry Kewell was channelling Gerrard, Rooney and Pires for the pelanty, and it was on'y a friendly and not the World Cup where we got stuffed 4-0, but still. Go you Aussies.

Have you seen any of Osieck's post match press interviews! He's really excited, lor'bless 'im. Great result even in a meaningless friendly, these things are always going to mean more to us than they would to other nations but I'm pleased.

Once again, William Gallas is injuree during the vital final stage of the season. Good riddance.

Link

Great post, Tam, and thanks for clearing that up.

A couple questions for you:

-Do you agree with Strathclyde Police's recommendation to stop Old Firm mtaches?
-Are there anything the clubs themselves can do to combat the issue? Sectarianism is obviously deep-seated(EG, brought about by schooling patterns, residential segregation, etc), but again, I'm not too enlightened on the specific issue.

Pepe LeFrits wrote:

The Guardian has a good little article on Anton Hysen, the 20 year old Swedish footballer who came out recently:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/29/anton-hysen-afraid-coming-out

Fair play to him.

the gay community assumed Glenn was a homophobe after he threw a punch at a man who groped him in the toilets at Frankfurt airport in 2001.

😆 So now you're a homophobe just because you don't like guys groping you in toilets?

WARNING - EXTREMELY LONG POST ALERT! 😆

Xcdude24 wrote:

Great post, Tam, and thanks for clearing that up.

A couple questions for you:

-Do you agree with Strathclyde Police's recommendation to stop Old Firm mtaches?

I wouldn’t agree with that. Again, without meaning to pick out mistakes, this is slightly wrong though. The chairman of the Scottish Police Federation, the representative body for cops, said in an idea world that old firm games would be banned due to the ‘murder and mayhem’ caused by it, to put it in his own words. But he realises it would be unlikely if not impossible and hasn't actually called for it.

I understand the reasoning though, it is a disgraceful amount of trouble that accompanies these games. At the end of the day there are guys lying in hospital beds with slash marks on their faces and stab marks in their torso that will have a bearing on the rest of their lives, and it is all due to a game of football. It’s a terrible price to pay for some.

In my opinion there are two main aspects to this, firstly reducing the problems like above that are caused by the games, and secondly the strain put on resources due to policing the game itself and the force area afterwards. As long as Rangers play Celtic scenarios like the above will occur in great numbers after the games throughout Glasgow and beyond. One thing I’d like to highlight though is that whiles sectarianism is an issue, trouble is often due to people being Rangers or Celtic fans, it’s not necessarily because they are catholic or protestant, which is something I think can get misunderstood. The cut in police budgets makes responding to incidents like that and proactively reducing trouble more difficult.

The demand placed on police resources due to violence and disorder is huge for these games. I work for Strathclyde Police, in the same office as the Football Intelligence Officer for Rangers as it happens, and its an eye opener seeing how much work goes into planning in the run up to these games to ensure they are as trouble free as possible. This is completely up to Strathclyde Police, clubs only pay for policing within the stadium, which was due to change but I’m not sure if it has yet or not. Anyway, that is only a minor part of the policing operation on the day and budget cuts are only going to make policing these games and the fallout from them more difficult. That’s why I think it’s vitally important that actions on the pitch don’t incite trouble amongst the fans. I don’t want the passion taken out the game, and it doesn’t need to be, but the scenes of last month make an already difficult task near impossible to keep under control.

-Are there anything the clubs themselves can do to combat the issue? Sectarianism is obviously deep-seated(EG, brought about by schooling patterns, residential segregation, etc), but again, I'm not too enlightened on the specific issue.

Leading on from above, I think the main think the clubs can do is take more responsibility for how their actions influence the wider public. Neither club wants to back down, and incidents like Diouf going to the crowd, or Celtic/Lennon’s perpetuation of nonsensical conspiracy theories against them from the SFA get fans backs up and create more of an uneasy atmosphere than is necessary. I want games to be intimidating and full of passion, but that doesn’t need to be fuelled by any outside factors, there is enough ingrained in the psyche of the fans already.

There are generations lost to sectarianism and bigotry. Efforts are being made to educate youngsters these days, with success I’m sure, but there will always be a number who go home to families who see the other side as ‘Orange Bastards’ or ‘Fenian Bastards’. And for that reason this will always be an issue. Once that is someone's mindset, there is no changing it.

In my own opinion and from my experiences, and I’m choosing my words carefully here so as to not attract any allegations of bias, catholic schools may present a problem with regard to this as does it effectively foster an us and them attitude. My own school was non-denominational and I found people mixed better. I’m not criticising catholic schooling in itself; however they appear unwilling to recognise this may present an issue, which effectively shuts down another road to curing this disease before it can be explored properly.

Do you know what I find so ludicrous about it all? I’d say most of the people involved aren’t religious at all until it comes to old firm day, and couldn’t tell you the first thing about the proper history of where all this trouble stems from. It really is a disease borne out of ignorance and stupidity.

Insightful stuff, Tam. I've heard a bit about the whole "ninety-minute bigot phenomenon," and it's interesting to hear that you reckon there is some truth into it. Is there an organized aspect of the trouble that goes on?

I just saw a picture of what Adriano looks like these days:

Shocking physique for an active footballer. He even makes Ronaldo look slim.

dortmund roll to a 4-1 win. i like the way they play, i might just pretend they're arsenal for the rest of the season. when it comes to football, escapism is all i've got left 🙁

Tam wrote:

Do you know what I find so ludicrous about it all? I’d say most of the people involved aren’t religious at all until it comes to old firm day, and couldn’t tell you the first thing about the proper history of where all this trouble stems from. It really is a disease borne out of ignorance and stupidity.

I agree, it's more hysterical than historical.

For people with a decent knowledge of what's happening on the continent, how do you rate Andre Villas Boas?

He plays for England, and he plays for Man United, so nothing will happen. If Rooney was mid-table mediocrity, he'd get a three match ban. Same if he was foreign.

The FA corrupt, simple as.

Tam wrote:

Do you know what I find so ludicrous about it all? I’d say most of the people involved aren’t religious at all until it comes to old firm day, and couldn’t tell you the first thing about the proper history of where all this trouble stems from. It really is a disease borne out of ignorance and stupidity.

Thats what I really don't get. I mean I know loads of non-religious Sinn Fein types but thats political and nationalistic. No idea how or why all that shit travelled to Scotland and Glasgow in particular.

I've said it time and time again though, the sectarian songs that are allowed to continue are a disgrace and the kind of thing that would stop those teams ever playing in the Premier League.

Xcdude24 wrote:

He plays for England, and he plays for Man United, so nothing will happen. If Rooney was mid-table mediocrity, he'd get a three match ban. Same if he was foreign.

The FA corrupt, simple as.

Are you taking the piss? This would be a non story if it was anyone but Wayne Rooney!