The Film Thread: Page 393 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

The Film Thread

Klaus

Burnwinter wrote:
I disagree with your "guy movie" thesis though, as I think there's huge numbers of guy-centric, guy-focused films that are fucking great. It's more that the critical system surrounding the film economy that makes people (usually men) claim that films (usually guy films) that are not that great are masterpieces is a bit fucked.

That was the implication, yes. It was a simplified and generalising opinion, but as a startoff point for a discussion about the narrowing of experiences to a very specific, emotionally one-noted range I think it's pretty apt. You'll find the same underlying structure in guy literature and guy music too, supported by the same skewed critical systems.

Jens wrote:
I would be curious Klaus what you would consider a great ‘guy’ movie.

I think Sergio Leone made a bunch of great films. Most of his westerns were simple stories with men that were driven by simple impulses and as emotionally crippled as you'll ever find, but they were also rich cinematic creations that moved to their own pulse. I mentioned this on the previous page, but I think the first two and the last two Rocky films (I include Creed here) are incredibly thoughtful explorations of how class and impoverishment transform urban spaces, and how those spaces in turn transform people (and vice versa), much more than they are about individual glory and triumph.

Burnwinter

arsedoc md wrote:
What about LA confidential? I like it in the mold of Heat. Maybe it has to do somewhat with the fact that these movies didn't have hype when released unlike the others.

LA Confidential is elevated by the source material and a decent cast a lot of whom are doing their best work. Still wish one of the streaming services would do an Underworld USA TV series.

Asterix

It's interesting that movies from 40-60 years ago that are considered classics now are mostly comedies and musicals, with some westerns as well. Oh and Hitchcock. Am I wrong about that because I like comedies more?

Do "guy" movies not stand up are a few decades because the effects and action are now too dated, whereas comedy and character driven drama transcend time? You film buffs will no doubt have a more nuanced and insightful view.

Burnwinter

Well … 40 years ago is now 1978. There are a hell of a lot of canon classics before then that are "guy" films. Klaus's list of stinkers would be interesting to extend more back into the 50s and 60s.

I personally think there are a lot of great "guy" films, but I think it might be true that there are more critically overrated and over-revered "guy" films than other kinds.

A lot of films with technically interesting violence and stunts are a bit average to watch looking back. The Wild Bunch. Hard-Boiled. Ben Hur. You've got to get yourself into the spirit of the times to really enjoy them.

Mirth

Just to add to the list of Scorsese films that have aged badly - Mean Streets.

Claudius

Burnwinter wrote:
Well … 40 years ago is now 1978. There are a hell of a lot of canon classics before then that are "guy" films. Klaus's list of stinkers would be interesting to extend more back into the 50s and 60s.

I personally think there are a lot of great "guy" films, but I think it might be true that there are more critically overrated and over-revered "guy" films than other kinds.

A lot of films with technically interesting violence and stunts are a bit average to watch looking back. The Wild Bunch. Hard-Boiled. Ben Hur. You've got to get yourself into the spirit of the times to really enjoy them.

Watched Ben Hur recently. Hasn't aged so well. A few older movies I've watched this year that I thought aged well - Casablanca, Deer Hunter and Alice in Wonderland. The first two are two of my favorite war movies ever.

Burnwinter

Casablanca definitely still had it the last time I watched it. Many of Bogart's roles remain very compelling, he commands vast pathos from the viewer.

Mirth

12 Angry Men, Double Indemnity and most of Hitchcock's back catalogue are still enjoyable to me.

Burnwinter

Those two films are immense. But also not "guy" films in the sense Klaus meant at all ...

jones

Savz wrote:
Those two films are immense.

Burnwinter

😆 Watch it or I'll skin you on the inside ...

MistaT

How about a list of movies that have aged well?

Apocalypse Now
Alien(s)
The Godfather
Goodfellas
2001: A Space Odyssey

QuincyAbeyie

Back to the Future, 12 Angry Men, Jaws.

Asterix

Burnwinter wrote:
Well … 40 years ago is now 1978. There are a hell of a lot of canon classics before then that are "guy" films. Klaus's list of stinkers would be interesting to extend more back into the 50s and 60s.

I personally think there are a lot of great "guy" films, but I think it might be true that there are more critically overrated and over-revered "guy" films than other kinds.

A lot of films with technically interesting violence and stunts are a bit average to watch looking back. The Wild Bunch. Hard-Boiled. Ben Hur. You've got to get yourself into the spirit of the times to really enjoy them.

Heh, yes that's why I added the 60. I realised how old I am. Probably should have said 50-80 years - blimey.

I was thinking about it more over night and I think I am biased by my preferences. For instance I love Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers movies. Top Hat still holds up as a classic in my view. But so does just about any Hitchcock movie, back to The 39 Steps. But that isn't really a "guy" movie is it. The Westerns probably hold up well as classic guy movies, especially some of darker ones with Jimmy Stewart.

Just goes to show you can't beat a great script in the hands of a great director and great actors.

Jens

Alright Tolly-dwellers, need you to chip in on an argument I had on the train last night. What's the better year for movies, 1999 or 2007?

To refresh your memory, 1999 would be films like The Matrix, Magnolia, The Sixth Sense, Fight Club, Eyes Wide Shut, American Beauty, The Green Mile.

2007 includes There Will Be Blood, No Country For Old Men, Zodiac, Eastern Promises, Michael Clayton, The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford.

USArsenal

i would choose 1999 from those 2 years.

Coombs

There Will be Blood is one of the all time greats, and cinematography took a huge step forward between Deakins on No Country and Elswitt of the former. They really laid down the gauntlet for the next decade, and in many ways adjusted the scope for cinematographic achievement. All the folks thinking that Chivo had essentially given them license to stop using lights had to rethink. Deakins has, of course, done it again, while Elswitt may have peaked.

Also, if you're just comparing the PTA movies, it's no competition.

1999 was corny as hell. Eyes Wide Shut alone should relegate that year to dustier corridors of the archive.

Burnwinter

2007 is one of my favourite years in cinema, or one of the ones I've actually spent time thinking about as a "year" anyway. Unusually good year in indie music too.

USArsenal

Coombs wrote:
There Will be Blood is one of the all time greats, and cinematography took a huge step forward between Deakins on No Country and Elswitt of the former. They really laid down the gauntlet for the next decade, and in many ways adjusted the scope for cinematographic achievement. All the folks thinking that Chivo had essentially given them license to stop using lights had to rethink. Deakins has, of course, done it again, while Elswitt may have peaked.

Also, if you're just comparing the PTA movies, it's no competition.

1999 was corny as hell. Eyes Wide Shut alone should relegate that year to dustier corridors of the archive.

i actually hated EWS and Magnolia.. but the other movies listed were brilliant. (though, I didn't love American Beauty, but it was a really well made film)

I was not a major fan of the 2007 movies listed. I did like Zodiac, NCFOM and Jesse James.. thought There Will be Blood was good but wasnt a huge fan of Eastern Promises or Michael Clayton.

Not sure how you would list Fight Club, Green Mile, American Beauty, Matrix or Sixth Sense as corny.

there were other films in both years i enjoyed as well

jones

USArsenal wrote:
Not sure how you would list Fight Club, Green Mile, American Beauty, Matrix or Sixth Sense as corny.

there were other films in both years i enjoyed as well

Klaus bomb coming in in 3, 2, 1...

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