Norwich City v/s Arsenal, Saturday 17:30.: Page 15 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Norwich City v/s Arsenal, Saturday 17:30.

Tony Montana

Klaus wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
It'll be obvious when we become title challengers and this is not it.

I find the idea that we're going to seriously challenge for a Premier League title entertaining, considering the means of our opponents. You're not the first one to mention it either. Is that really the expectations you've got, or is it rather something you hope for?

I expect a club like Arsenal to challenge for the Premier League Title.

What are your ambitions for Arsenal considering the means of our opponents?

Doc

Yes his crossing is poor and ? Shall we just write him off because of that.. he bring a lot to the team and has been constantly improving, including his crossing. He's got great off the ball movement as a fullback going forward & we missed that today..find your constant over the top criticism of him ridiculous tbf, but hey your entitled to your opinion.

Tony Montana

Alfonso wrote:
Tony Montana, stop sitting on the fence, either you want Wenger out or in? What 'drastic changes' ? Wenger will continue to make the same mistakes every season and we will continue to pretty much have the same bloody season weve been having since 2005 bar one or two title shots (2007/2008 was the real and only title challenge since we last won a trophy to be fair).

Anyway, today's performance was the worse since we played Milan away.

Prob one of the worst away day Premier League performaces I have seen in ages too, almost as bad as Shefield Utd away in Dec 2006 or West Brom away in 2005.

Today we looked the slowest a Wenger team has ever looked.

Today also showed why Cazolra should not been named world class after just 4 games, not the first time he has not shown up and to be world class you need to do it week in week out over a long period of time.

Vermaelen is a joke at the moment, quite overrated in many aspects when you think about.

The least said about that fat slob Santos and that idiot Gervinho the better. Giroud is a dud too.

It should be obvious that I've wanted Wenger out for a few years now.

You're basically repeating what i've written on the previous page.

Klaus

Tony Montana wrote:
I expect a club like Arsenal to challenge for the Premier League Title.

What are your ambitions for Arsenal considering the means of our opponents?

I stopped having expectations some time ago. Around the time when oligarchs and Emirati businessmen started outspending us by hundreds of millions to be precise. My personal feelings are that people who think that we "should" challenge for the league just because we've done it in the past are a bit out of touch with reality. Not quite as out of touch with reality as those who believe that everything will solve itself if we just resort to counterattacking football, but still. You don't need a new manager if you want us to seriously challenge for Premier League. You need a new club owner.

Not sure how we ended up here, by the way. We were discussing the game just a few posts ago. 😆

Alfonso

Tony Montana wrote:
Alfonso wrote:
Tony Montana, stop sitting on the fence, either you want Wenger out or in? What 'drastic changes' ? Wenger will continue to make the same mistakes every season and we will continue to pretty much have the same bloody season weve been having since 2005 bar one or two title shots (2007/2008 was the real and only title challenge since we last won a trophy to be fair).

Anyway, today's performance was the worse since we played Milan away.

Prob one of the worst away day Premier League performaces I have seen in ages too, almost as bad as Shefield Utd away in Dec 2006 or West Brom away in 2005.

Today we looked the slowest a Wenger team has ever looked.

Today also showed why Cazolra should not been named world class after just 4 games, not the first time he has not shown up and to be world class you need to do it week in week out over a long period of time.

Vermaelen is a joke at the moment, quite overrated in many aspects when you think about.

The least said about that fat slob Santos and that idiot Gervinho the better. Giroud is a dud too.

It should be obvious that I've wanted Wenger out for a few years now.

You're basically repeating what i've written on the previous page.

Really? You must the most diplomatic of the 'Wenger out' brigrade then. Glad you have finally seen this man is holding us back though. I wonder if Rc8 is still happy with him, I remember vividly he was one fo Wenger's biggest supporters back in the day.

squallkid

If he is holding us back who exactly can take us forward?

A new manager can't make the board go out and spend 35 million pounds on that one star player that we all so desperately want.

Neither can said manager turn the likes of Gervinho, Walcott and Frimpong into world beaters.

Our problems are much bigger than Wenger.

Tony Montana

Alfonso wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
It should be obvious that I've wanted Wenger out for a few years now.

You're basically repeating what i've written on the previous page.

Really? You must the most diplomatic of the 'Wenger out' brigrade then. Glad you have finally seen this man is holding us back though. I wonder if Rc8 is still happy with him, I remember vividly he was one fo Wenger's biggest supporters back in the day.

I think you're just reading my posts wrong and don't get the tone. Certainly the one you just quoted.

See below.

Tony Montana wrote:
Klaus wrote:
It doesn't imply that the conclusion would be to sack him. It just means that there are things he can rightfully be criticised for. There are also undeniable pros to having him as a manager.

After 8 years then yes.

Tony Montana

Klaus wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
I expect a club like Arsenal to challenge for the Premier League Title.

What are your ambitions for Arsenal considering the means of our opponents?

I stopped having expectations some time ago. Around the time when oligarchs and Emirati businessmen started outspending us by hundreds of millions to be precise. My personal feelings are that people who think that we "should" challenge for the league just because we've done it in the past are a bit out of touch with reality. Not quite as out of touch with reality as those who believe that everything will solve itself if we just resort to counterattacking football, but still. You don't need a new manager if you want us to seriously challenge for Premier League. You need a new club owner.

Not sure how we ended up here, by the way. We were discussing the game just a few posts ago. 😆

😆 True.

I believe in 2007/08 we could have won it. I will always believe it.

In 2006/07 (not sure if you were an A-M member then), we had a league thread and people were asked who they thought would win the league. The majority answers were Chelsea because of Abramovich. It was so obvious people lauded. People like Famous no 10 were convinced that Chelsea had bought the title pretty much for good until Abramovich would leave when he got bored. Believe me people thought United were pretty much done. Even United's own fans on Red Cafe thought that when we beat them 1-0 at Old Trafford (Ade winner) it would be typical of their season that they'd lose against a bit of decent opposition.

Instead United came in and won 4 league titles in 5 years, beating Chelsea pretty regularly even in the CL.

If United could do it, can't we? So then the argument became, 'oh well United have more cash than us anyway and can spend 30m quid whenver' completely ignoring the fact that we have competed with them between 97 and 04 and winning a few duels here and there. They had way more cash than us during that period too.

Then City came along and whilst the story of the sheiks was fascinating, I don't think people expected City to win the league as quick as they did. Chelsea and United won the leagues before they finally did last year. Even then it was by goal difference. They are hardly blowing the league away this season, not like Chelsea in 05.

Every season we must make our hard work, tactics and money count. We can't do anything about City beating WBA after going down to ten men but we can do something about beating Norwich with 11 men even when we ourselves go down after only 15 mins. Repeat this game after game. We currently don't. I don't think Arsenal do everything within their power to win the league and that's why we dont win it.

I don't believe our opponents are as impossible to overall over a course of a season as you suggest.

Klaus

Tony Montana wrote:
If United could do it, can't we? So then the argument became, 'oh well United have more cash than us anyway and can spend 30m quid whenver' completely ignoring the fact that we have competed with them between 97 and 04 and winning a few duels here and there. They had way more cash than us during that period too.

The thing is that we could do it occasionally during that period. The bolded word being occasionally. Three league titles in eight years to be precise, with what people widely consider to be the best team in the modern history of the club. The others were scooped up by United. Now there's Chelsea and City too. A few years ago before they fucked themselves there were Liverpool as well.

You hear nonsense all the time about how we're supposedly "the most profitable club in the most important city of Europe", or whatever the soundbyte is that is being thrown around. The reality is that we're not even the richest or most attractive club in London.

Tony Montana wrote:
I don't believe our opponents are as impossible to overall over a course of a season as you suggest.

People say that we're just a couple of players away from having a team to challenge City, and they're right - in terms of the starting eleven, when everyone is fit and up to speed (incidentally, this happens once every other year or so; usually in a preseason game). In terms of squad depth we're so far off that we could be mistaken for a Bundesliga team.

Just off the top of your head, how much do you think Chelsea have spent on transfers in the last two or three years? Try to make an educated guess without googling.

Tony Montana

Klaus wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
If United could do it, can't we? So then the argument became, 'oh well United have more cash than us anyway and can spend 30m quid whenver' completely ignoring the fact that we have competed with them between 97 and 04 and winning a few duels here and there. They had way more cash than us during that period too.

The thing is that we could do it occasionally during that period. The bolded word being occasionally. Three league titles in eight years to be precise, with what people widely consider to be the best team in the modern history of the club. The others were scooped up by United. Now there's Chelsea and City too. A few years ago before they fucked themselves there were Liverpool as well.

You hear nonsense all the time about how we're supposedly "the most profitable club in the most important city of Europe", or whatever the soundbyte is that is being thrown around. The reality is that we're not even the richest or most attractive club in London.

People say that we're just a couple of players away from having a team to challenge City, and they're right - in terms of the starting eleven, when everyone is fit and up to speed (incidentally, this happens once every other year or so; usually in a preseason game). In terms of squad depth we're so far off that we could be mistaken for a Bundesliga team.

Our squad depth is more like a lower placed team in the Premier League or do you mean a top Bundesliga team? People constantly laugh at other teams' squad bar City's (and now Chelsea's but last season we laughed at Chelsea until May.) Two other top players would significantly change us for the better. Sure people still get injured but not for every game. Look at our defence? We have better coverage now.

3 titles in 8 years is better than anyone else could manage in Premier League history until Chelsea came along. But the way people were banging on about Chelsea was as if they would win everything before them every year. United adjusted and dominated. Chelsea won the CL but in the year you least expected them to do it. Fair play to them; I don't shout that they fluked it. But the irony is that people who think that we can't really compete with them becuase of money are the same people who say that their CL win was so lucky. Are they lucky or is it money?

Klaus wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
I don't believe our opponents are as impossible to overall over a course of a season as you suggest.

Just off the top of your head, how much do you think Chelsea have spent on transfers in the last two or three years? Try to make an educated guess without googling.

300 million pounds?

But money can't buy you everything. You need a top manager, tactics etc to enhance that. AVB would have taken Chelsea down even further had he stayed.

Biggus

squallkid wrote:
It's a two way street Biggus, you can't place all the blame at Wenger's street all the time something goes wrong but refuse to credit him otherwise.

But what has he done in the last 5 years thats creditworthy?
And don't say qualify for the CL, we're Arsenal not fucking Fulham thats the very bare minimum thats expected from a club like ours.

And anyway I have given him credit for things that he's good at like bringing in some great players cheaply, but then they're just sold on because he can't assemble them into a balanced effective unit, and his tactics are hopelessly naive.

Klaus wrote:
I see. So whenever they happen to win a game it's down to their individual qualities but as soon as they lose it's because old man Arséne has put together a system that undermines everyone. That makes sense.

Is this really the level we're going to discuss this on? Because I honestly can't be arsed with this nonsense tonight, particularly not after a day like this.

But thats the thing Klaus we're all disappointed when we lose but by just vanishing from the forum sticking your head in the sand blaming individual players whilst denying that the same issues keep recurring year after year after year isn't going to move us forward.

Everyone is just happy and relieved when we win- This is exactly the right time to discuss this.

Tony Montana

Klaus do you not think we could have won the league in 2007/08?

squallkid

Well Biggus I can't think of one thing he's done in an overall season that is creditworthy in the past 5 years

It needs to be said that only last season and in 2005-06 and 2008-09 were we scrapping for a CL place, other seasons we were in the "race" but our title challenge inevitably faltered and we ended up dropping to 4th place by the sheer fact that the teams below couldn't catch us because we had amassed enough points before our decline.

To my mind Wenger is the one holding us back at times but at the same time he is the only one keeping this shambles together.

Yes he sells all of our best players

Yes his tactics at times have cost us

Yes he keeps putting out weakened teams

Yes he has bought some crap players

No I don't want to praise him for achieving the bare minimum that we expect i.e 4th place/3rd place but for him to keep selling our best players year after year and still maintain our position is something. Give him Man City and he'll win the league every season, give him a team of Seaman-Henry and he'll win the league every season as well.

It just seems to me that this TEAM as is, is punching above its weight when you look at the quality it has this season and last season and that's a credit to Wenger but this CLUB when you look at our history and proud tradition is badly underachieving and that's Wenger's fault.

Did that make any sense?

Klaus

Tony Montana wrote:
3 titles in 8 years is better than anyone else could manage in Premier League history until Chelsea came along.

This is precisely my point.

Tony Montana wrote:
United adjusted and dominated.

United didn't need to adjust much. They've been the most profitable football club in the world for two decades. They still are, even if the holding company is buried under a debt mountain that might or might not bring them down in the future. They made the transition without blinking when wage and transfer costs started to inflate. Our wage bill has more than doubled in seven years and we're still behind the pack.

Tony Montana wrote:
Chelsea won the CL but in the year you least expected them to do it. Fair play to them; I don't shout that they fluked it. But the irony is that people who think that we can't really compete with them becuase of money are the same people who say that their CL win was so lucky. Are they lucky or is it money?

Bit of both, in all honesty. They had a good enough squad to do it on merit but they underperformed massively. In the end they fluked it. That much is inarguable for me. They were brutally, senselessly outplayed so many times where the woodwork or a few stupendously poor refereeing decisions were the only things saving them.

Tony Montana wrote:
300 million pounds?

But money can't buy you everything.

Close. About £260 million, wages and agent fees excluded.

Money certainly can't buy you everything, but having enough money to buy anything is a start. And one hell of an disadvantage for anyone else who happens to compete with you.

Klaus

Tony Montana wrote:
Klaus do you not think we could have won the league in 2007/08?

Hard to tell. Maybe. It would've been a miracle if we did.

I'm not saying you can't win the league, by the way. I'm saying it would be unprecedented in European football to do it under these circumstances. The odds are small even if everything would miraculously go our way.

Biggus

Klaus wrote:
if you want us to seriously challenge for Premier League. You need a new club owner.

I've said often enough that we do.

Wenger is excellent business manager for the club.
He's a mediocre coach for the team, he's demonstrated time and again by producing sides of many different players over the years that react the exact same way to well drilled opposition.
If you're going to play a patient passing style you have to be prepared to pay for the very best technical players that can break down teams, and he isn't.

But you shouldn't need a team of expensive mega stars to beat the likes of fucking Norwich!

Klaus

Biggus wrote:
But you shouldn't need a team of expensive mega stars to beat the likes of fucking Norwich!

You certainly don't. You don't even need to be Santi Cazorla to create something against them. You just need to go out there and act bloody professional. This guy was the only one who did so today:

Biggus

I agree, but setting up a team where the most potent attacking threat comes from two midfielders is wrong.

Tony Montana

So then Wenger should drill professionalism into the team. I've complained about our lack of it in the past.

Tony Montana

Klaus wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
Klaus do you not think we could have won the league in 2007/08?

Hard to tell. Maybe. It would've been a miracle if we did.

I'm not saying you can't win the league, by the way. I'm saying it would be unprecedented in European football to do it under these circumstances. The odds are small even if everything would miraculously go our way.

We were 5 points clear until Feb when we played Brum. I truly believe Wenger and Gallas messed it up. When we need to fight we went out with a wimper. Because many times it's how you react to adversity that's the most important.

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