We didn't play tippy tappy in 07/08.

Don't think we played any specific style by design last season.
We improvised the whole way through because Wenger ended up with players who he was forced into buying out of necessity and not because of any long term planning.
Add injury to that and we were further compromised.

For the vast majority of the games that we played our effort primarily revolved around getting the ball to van Persie, usually via Theo or Song.
It wasn't always direct either - often messy, tedious and regularly quite disjointed - Van Persie was often cut-off without any supply.

If Gervinho hadn't suffered a nose dive in form after his first couple of months (Ramsey too) we would probably have had the means to have been more direct.

For those who aren't aware, in Biggus language:

Direct: scrappy and defensive

Tippy-tappy: controlled and attacking

There are variations when he has to shift the goalposts for a particular argument, but that translation should save you about 30mins per day.

Cheers, Captain. Figured as much.

Timbo, fully agree that we didn't play tippy-tappy in 07-08. That was probably the best football we've played since our title wins of the early 00's.

timBO! wrote:

We didn't play tippy tappy in 07/08.

Not particularly, but we did have Alex Hleb, and admitting he was ever any good would cause Biggus's skull to explode.

but you have to admit that hleb epitomises what biggus hates about "tippy tappy", which presumably (i dont want to put words in his mouth) is having loads of skill on the ball and doing short triangles to get out of tight spaces, but having no long game, no ability to put your boot through it and put it in the far corner, and having no urgency to get in the box or get on the end of a pass to score.

One of the things that bugs me most about Gervinho is how it takes him three touches to get the ball in front of him. If he had a proper touch he'd get himself 1v1 a lot more often, instead he ends up in a 2v1 yet STILL tries to do that shitty drag move to the by line and cross it with his non existant left foot.

In terms of technical ability Gervinho is very, very poor. Can't strike the ball and he knows it, hence his confidence in front of goal is poor. He always looks to go around the keeper or wait for support.

Hleb wasn't a guy to win matches off his own boot, and faded fast outside the Wenger hothouse, but to me the vilification of him (as a footballer, not an idiot off the pitch) is just symptomatic of the way people complain about football sides.

The negative focus is generally on the players who are on the pitch, who are prominent, who have the ball or make mistakes or frustrate the eye, and not on the absences and silences.

The height of the "Fabregas centric" football that Biggus despises was 09-10. Fabregas saved our hides that season. The problem then was not the players we had doing a job, even misfits and no-hopers like Gallas and Denilson weren't the real problem - it was the fit and firing striker we lacked.

Hleb was one of the most aesthetically pleasing players to ever play for Arsenal or in England. Magical footballer who didn't make the most of his talent, but when he was in form he was beautiful.

Like Hleb or not, I suppose it's fair to say that he was a key part of the only Arsenal side since 2005 to crack the 80 point season total and finish within 10 points of the eventual champions. Biggus may think we did that in spite of Hleb's bluntness, or Fabregas' greasiness, when in reality, it was yet another season of Arsenal FC not willing to push on, give our good players more good players to play with, and finish the job properly.

Biggus just has the shits with us not winning anything recently. THAT is something I totally understand.

SimplyThePest wrote:

What's there to answer? You've got this idea in your head that we did better in 11-12 than 10-11 because we played 'direct' football, but as soon as one points out that in 07-08, we did better again playing your much hated tippy-tappy, all of a sudden there is no prize for third. Not much consistency, see, hence the 'lobby rat' 'attack'.

You're wrong.
You should read what I actually say not what you think others have said I said.

You do realise that this is a forum and what the means don't you?
You're opinion of my posting style is irrelevant, all you have to concern yourself with is if you agree or disagree with what I say and if I'm right or wrong, not how I say it.

y va marquer wrote:

Don't think we played any specific style by design last season.
We improvised the whole way through because Wenger ended up with players who he was forced into buying out of necessity and not because of any long term planning.
Add injury to that and we were further compromised.

For the vast majority of the games that we played our effort primarily revolved around getting the ball to van Persie, usually via Theo or Song.
It wasn't always direct either - often messy, tedious and regularly quite disjointed - Van Persie was often cut-off without any supply.

If Gervinho hadn't suffered a nose dive in form after his first couple of months (Ramsey too) we would probably have had the means to have been more direct.

Thank you Y va, I totally agree and have said as much many times.
We did not play a direct style (at least how I'd define it) but a mixture, and whether by accident or design it was moderately more successful than previous seasons.

Captain wrote:

For those who aren't aware, in Biggus language:

Direct: scrappy and defensive

Tippy-tappy: controlled and attacking

There are variations when he has to shift the goalposts for a particular argument, but that translation should save you about 30mins per day.

Again.....Capi I'd thank you to leave the "explanation" of anything I've said to myself.
As you're simply wrong, you look foolish trying to attribute to me things I've never said just for the purpose of mockery.

kamikaze wrote:

but you have to admit that hleb epitomises what biggus hates about "tippy tappy", which presumably (i dont want to put words in his mouth)

You're pretty unique here then Kami.

Biggus wrote:

Captain wrote:

For those who aren't aware, in Biggus language:

Direct: scrappy and defensive

Tippy-tappy: controlled and attacking

There are variations when he has to shift the goalposts for a particular argument, but that translation should save you about 30mins per day.

Again.....Capi I'd thank you to leave the "explanation" of anything I've said to myself.
As you're simply wrong, you look foolish trying to attribute to me things I've never said just for the purpose of mockery.

Things you've never said?

There is nothing wrong or mocking in what I have written there. Not in the slightest.

"it was moderately more successful than previous seasons"

Yeah, except it wasn't ... and you've made such a mountain out of the difference rhetorically, which is what provoked the increasingly agitated disagreement with your view in the first place.

We really did not improve and did not look better as a unit last season than the one previous ... all we did was jettison a couple of nigglesome wantaways and feel moderately better about it, until the next couple appeared on the horizon.

[font=Courier]
Season P W D L F A Pts Pos
05-06 38 20 7 11 68 31 67 4th
06-07 38 19 11 8 63 35 68 4th
07-08 38 24 11 3 74 31 83 3rd
08-09 38 20 12 6 68 37 72 4th
09-10 38 23 6 9 83 41 75 3rd
10-11 38 19 11 8 72 43 68 4th
11-12 38 21 7 10 74 49 70 3rd
[/font]

I'm struggling to see a pattern or change other than consistency and a slow trend of conceding more and more goals

The story of last season was that Chelsea were shit, not that we improved.

EDIT: Peps - is there some decent way of posting fixed width content here? The

 tag doesn't seem to quite work.

Captain wrote:

Things you've never said?

There is nothing wrong or mocking in what I have written there. Not in the slightest.

There is because I never said those things.

@ Burnsy, When I said we were moderately more successful I meant in finishing positions.
Yes you are correct in pointing out that that we are comparing apples with oranges, different seasons pose different challenges, but as I said you can only beat whats put in front of you.
And I believe we did quite well last season considering the disastrous Wenger inflicted start we had.
I believe our recovery was due to him belatedly deciding that we needed experienced players to rescue the situation, Wenger is very good at dragging a patient from deaths door back to serious but stable.
I also believe that new arrivals didn't have time to be inculcated into "the Wenger way" and simply did their thing, hence the mixed up style, thats why we recovered.

Biggus wrote:

Captain wrote:

Things you've never said?

There is nothing wrong or mocking in what I have written there. Not in the slightest.

There is because I never said those things.

But you imply it in every third or fourth post.

"When I said we were moderately more successful I meant in finishing positions"

:hmm:

The difference between 3rd and 4th is irrelevant to everything except a CL qualifier - so why do you continue to quibble on this? You're usually the master of pointing out that zero trophies is zero trophies whether you do it with a flourish or a strain.

We also finished 3rd in 07-08 and 09-10 which were both seasons somewhat representative of the style of football you claim last season improved upon (Flamini's mythical fighting presence in 07-08 aside).

We've had points totals between 67 and 83 and positions between 3rd and 4th since we last won a trophy and last season was slap bang in the middle of that plateau of consistent mediocrity / success / good custodianship / gutlessness / call-it-what-you-will.

Two players who were totally key to whatever we managed to achieve last season are gone.

So basically, your argument never held water and the status quo you based it on has already moved on ...

@ Capi, not that Direct= scrappy and defensive
And Tippy-tappy= controlled and attacking I don't.
Thats meaningless nonsense, Spain won the last world cup by being defensive and controlled- I and many others despised them for it but it's impossible not to have grudging respect because at the end of the day it worked and they won.
But I've said that before and if you'd bothered to check instead of just using cliches you thought everyone (well the more lazy) would recognise to mock me.

@ Burnsy, of course we don't win any trophies for being 3rd instead of 4th, but there are those who these things are important.
I concede that there is no logical progression, lessons learned one season are inapplicable the next as players come and go.
The only constant of course is Wenger.

You're talking to Captain's jibes and not to what I'm saying Biggo, but never mind ...

Give me a chance, it's like whack-a-mole here.

You may not be a mole, but based on your analysis of our performances I'm starting to think you're blind ...

Captain wrote:

For those who aren't aware, in Biggus language:

Direct: scrappy and defensive

Tippy-tappy: controlled and attacking

There are variations when he has to shift the goalposts for a particular argument, but that translation should save you about 30mins per day.

Always asumed by 'Direct' biggus meant a quick, incisive to the point style of attacking as opposed to 'tippy tappy' which he views as 100 probing passes that don't go anywhere.

I've have never believed 'tippy tappy' as biggus calls it was ever a style of play. Simply down to having players who couldn't do anything other than pass it sidewards or give it away against packed defences.

In fairness, Biggus has also said that the reason he dislikes 'possession' football is because it requires a high level of ability to execute and we don't bring in those players.

Bumper Rex wrote:

I think some of you guys need to get off Biggus' back. There are plenty of things regarding football I totally disagree with Gus about, but there is no doubt whatsoever that Gus is a top poster. This place would be a whole lot less interesting if there weren't the scale of posters from Kid to Biggus.

Thanks for your kind words Rex.
But it's water off a ducks back, bad news is never rewarded, I've dealt with vilification for years.

otfgoon wrote:

I've have never believed 'tippy tappy' as biggus calls it was ever a style of play. Simply down to having players who couldn't do anything other than pass it sidewards or give it away against packed defences.

Hmm interesting variation Otf, failure by accident rather than by design.

Biggus wrote:

@ Capi, not that Direct= scrappy and defensive
And Tippy-tappy= controlled and attacking I don't.
Thats meaningless nonsense, Spain won the last world cup by being defensive and controlled- I and many others despised them for it but it's impossible not to have grudging respect because at the end of the day it worked and they won.
But I've said that before and if you'd bothered to check instead of just using cliches you thought everyone (well the more lazy) would recognise to mock me.

I read every single one of your posts mate. The description I gave is still accurate.

Biggus wrote:

otfgoon wrote:

I've have never believed 'tippy tappy' as biggus calls it was ever a style of play. Simply down to having players who couldn't do anything other than pass it sidewards or give it away against packed defences.

Hmm interesting variation Otf, failure by accident rather than by design.

Same argument as 'direct' isn't a style of play, it's just a consequence of having players who can't hold the ball up, or play an accurate short pass and move game against the press.

And indeed I think Wenger's approach to tactics hasn't changed much tactically, not nearly as much as the players available. Just as our results have been on a plain.

Our style is very counter-attacking, exploiting space and movement, but when the opposing team decides to just sit back and defend then passing sideways becomes the way it pans out, out of necessity. But "tippy tappy" is something else and isn't our style.

All teams, even Stoke, look to play some sort of possession football during games. What looks exciting with our team so far for me, is that we don't look like conceding every time the other team comes into our half. Not too worried about us scoring. Wenger teams always score a decent amount. You need to be able to defend properly to win something, and so far this season we look stable in our defensive shape.

Utd have won a few titles after hanging about in 8th place or so at the beginning of a season by letting in very few goals and failing to score much themselves while other teams whoop each other 5-0 and end up with nothing in the end.

Winning is great, but not losing is pretty good, too. Maybe this season we'll peak a little later for once, and actually be able to sustain a challenge throughout. You can't do that if you're getting scored against in every game. That's why players like Gervais and Hleb can be very useful. Maybe they don't score, but Helb could keep the ball and Gervais can pin back both an FB and his winger, which makes it all the more difficult to score against us.

Captain wrote:

I read every single one of your posts mate.

I'm flattered Capi, and likewise.

Burnwinter wrote:

Biggus wrote:

Hmm interesting variation Otf, failure by accident rather than by design.

Same argument as 'direct' isn't a style of play, it's just a consequence of having players who can't hold the ball up, or play an accurate short pass and move game against the press.

And indeed I think Wenger's approach to tactics hasn't changed much tactically, not nearly as much as the players available. Just as our results have been on a plain.

Of course no one pumps balls forward hopefully it's too wasteful, theres a world of difference between "a long ball" and "a long pass".
In my opinion greatest and most exciting teams to watch know how to effortlessly alternate between short passes long passes and running with the ball.
Think late 80's Liverpool & Milan, Man U mid 90's and indeed our good selves early 00's.

tippy-tappy is that style of play when your opponent won't

Wenger on Gervinho: 'You know we transform all wingers into centre forwards! I decided to do it during our tour of Asia'

i'm excited to see more of gerv up front. the guy's quality and maybe this is the move that will take him to the next level.

He's got all of the attributes except for consistent finishing. In my opinion, that is easily remedied but some believe differently so we'll see.

Big Fat Melon On Fire.
Told ya'll!

Captain wrote:

He's got all of the attributes except for consistent finishing.

And self belief in his abilities to the point of arrogance.

He can't finish well enough to be a regular option at centre forward.

He played well today though.

asajoseph wrote:

He can't finish well enough to be a regular option at centre forward.

He played well today though.

Adebayor was a terrible finisher, but scored quite a few goals. Wenger can make anyone play good up there.

Adebayor and Gervinho aren't even close to being in the same category.

asajoseph wrote:

Adebayor and Gervinho aren't even close to being in the same category.

You're right, Adebayor was much worse when he joined us.

With our midfield full of technically gifted playmakers, what we need upfront is clever dynamic movement. Gervinho and giroud both provide this excellently

We will continue to create numerous chances if we carry on playing this way