Biggus wrote:
Ricky1985 wrote:
I don't doubt Cesc and Henry are "Gooners" and love Arsenal, but they love the Arsenal that Arsene has created.
Totally agree with you Rick.
😆 you totally agree with Ricky? Thought your coming down on this like a vulture on a corpse. At least you can't agree with players who play for Arsene FC being "gooners"?
Anyway.
I'm not contesting any of the factual description, Ricky. It is, for all purposes, one and the same thing ATM: every thing the club does is in Wenger's image.
But you cannot possibly qualify for being a Gooner if you're merely an Arsene man. That is more or less an absolute, or conceptual thing: the priority of the club over all else is what actually defines being a gooner. If it isn't like that - you are just not.
Think of fans for a moment: take that wengerite portion, for simplicity. Wenger is the best thing ever happened to us, want him to stay till he's 89 years old, oblige him to stay even if he wants to retire. Do they leave the club in case he does? I don't think so. don't really have a choice there (if they do, I think all would agree they are not really fans. Or some sort of strange "wenger fans" - I certainly haven't met one, or heard of one for that matter). But suppose you'll say "fans are different; Gooner fans and gooner players are a different category, and what qualifies them as such are different qualities".
OK then - what? what is it about Henry that makes most of us believe he really and truly is a gooner (and why cesc is, according to most, though not yourself, a different case)? is it results -what he did for us? you get that like you get a "Sir" thing? (I know some are tempted, but I think it's ridiculous). Or is it that we actually do accept he loves the club in the same unwavering way a fan does (where does that leave Cesc)?
What things are, and the way they are perceived are different matters. And (perhaps to make it even worse) sometimes the way they are perceived is a more accurate reflection of their essential nature. Clubs and their fans tell you that: it could be, at this time, that this is Arsene FC in all pragmatic aspects (I actually don't agree with that, but let's assume I do). The fans still are emotionally attached to the club (as in loyalty), and their emotional attachment with the manager is a by product of that (think how much loyalty Wenger was enjoying exactly a year ago, and how much it was related to his contribution to the state of the club. Then think end of season).
Fans (and in my mind reasonable to hold for players) see the club as a separate entity (perception), even if in reality, at a certain point in time, it isn't so ("reality" - the way you described AFC since Wenger). In the long run, that perception is more accurate than the reality at a certain time - it is more reflective of the club's essence. That is in no way connected to one person, no matter how influential that person is (of course this is not denying that influence could be huge: some fans, e.g., only join thanks to that person's effect).
Anyway, I know this is too much for some as it is, but back to where we started:
Personally think Fabregas loved Wenger a whole lot more than he loved Arsenal.
which you allude to as "one and the same". Well, not for true gooners it isn't, it could not be. That was my point (and your "cesc=gooner" only made it stronger).
